As someone who worked in the courier business and dealt with damaged packages, it looks like the end was torn off when it was opened. If it was damaged in transit, usually what happens is that something heavy was placed on top of it, and the box would appear crushed. That one looks like someone grabbed it by the corner where there is commonly a hole, and pulled. Commonly a box is opened that way when the person doesn't have a knife to cut the tape. Most of the time, this is done one of 3 places:

1) The receiver, trying to pull a fast one.
2) Somewhere in the postal system...
3) The box is left in an insecure place and someone comes along and rips open the box to steal the contents.

These are in the order of frequency of occurrence, they are ordered this way only because if the box is left in an insecure area, thieves will simply take the whole box, rip it open and dump the box in a dumpster somewhere. They don't leave the open box on the doorstep, because it lengthens the time they are in the process of stealing, and that lengths the time they could get caught.

Surprisingly little stuff gets stolen during the carrier process, for a simple reason, it's too risky. Getting caught means your automatically fired, and the union is happy to let you twist in the wind, often the carrier will have you charged by the local constabulary. So not only do you get a police record, you lose a good job that pays well and has decent benefits, even though you don't require a degree. Not only that, but it's the one area where the union encourages members to "rat" on co-workers, and carriers will often pay bonuses for reporting a co-worker. I think where I worked it was $100 for reporting an employee theft, didn't matter if the item stolen was work less then $100.

I worked as a delivery person, if a box was damaged, there were 3 known options:

1) Refuse delivery, on the scanner was a place for a reason, for example "box damaged".
2) Accept it, as damaged, the driver puts on a comment "box damaged" before the receiver signs for it.
3) Accept it, as is.

I lot of delivery people would really use options 1 and 2 only, to cover their own tail, and it was also making it clear that if the receiver complained to the sender, that the box was damaged before it was received, for insurance purposes. As a sorter, if it was damaged, it was sent on, it's up to the delivery person and receiver to work this out. As the sender I would run the package number or B/L number and see if the delivery person put any comments on the delivery. Generally it's up to the sender to file a claim with the carrier. The photos are not really helpful in that it looks like it was opened rather then damaged. As a sorter, I would not load an opened box, that was put aside and a manager or supervisor called over, because if I handle it, then I take responsibility for it. There was an exception, retail stock, stores wanted there stuff anyway and didn't care, so if a box was damaged or opened, it would be taped and loaded, because that's the way they wanted it.

^
A worthy insight into the system.

That said, there's something else that - on a hunch - stinks to me. As stupid and obvious as it may seem, the first reaction of someone who is asked to photograph their box - of which the contents have been stolen - will photograph the open end of the box, so you can see that it is empty.

Hence, the angle of those three photographs don't add up. They look as if they're hiding the inside of the box. Granted, it'd take a stupid scammer to leave the "stolen" contents inside the box, but someone with an agenda might be intent enough upon to rush through the photography without ever pulling the parts out of the box.

In short, it looks staged.

-Kurt

I'd agree with Kurt. If this happened to me (buyer), I'd take a pic of the box such as the ones posted, but also of the open end looking into the box, and then probably with the packing and content removed and displayed.

If you can contact the delivering postal carrier and they say the box was undamaged, you would have a pretty good indictment of the buyer, or if delivered to their front door and left until collected, the neighbors or passers-by.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how it is the sellers problem. Help the buyer with the claim but I would not refund their money. Buy insurance!

I agree with this, why else would he have to go hide in the bathroom to open his box. Is the bathroom floor really the best place to take pictures?

Yeah really looked staged when I saw then end torn open like that. Part of me wants to refund the dude and just be done with the hassle, but I think that's what these guys are counting on (plus I don't want to be out $45 if I can help it). Don't have a phone with me today to call the post office, but the delivery notification and tracking had no notation of problems when it was delivered. Plus I'm not sure how all the air pillows are still in there (as he claims) if the saddle/seatpost weren't. Also it looks to have been cut as the shipping label is taped over the taped seam and yet there's no tape hanging over the torn off end.

Nope. I always ship UPS with insurance (free up to $100) and any UPS shipment comes with tracking. The only time I ship USPS anymore is on very low cost, small items (like hardware pieces). Earlier in the week another thread was started on these issues:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...Received-Item.

The problem with non-tracked USPS services (even if you have something like Delivery Confirmation) is lack of accountability and "paper-trail." If something goes wrong on your UPS, Fedex, DHL, shipment you can easily identify where things went wrong and the responsible office. Specifically, with UPS you get a "Delivery Exception" notice if indeed your package was misrouted.

Saving the occasional few bucks with USPS is just not worth the headaches.

Good points. I should probably go back to trying to sell my stuff on Craigslist. Local people can't complain about shipping. Not sure where the nearest UPS store is.

You can't possibly tell that from a few photos.

As a buyer who was a victim of theft in exactly this fashion I can tell you it does happen.

The only thing to learn from this is that buyer and seller should insist on insurance.

I put in a claim with my postal service and was told the buyer had to make the claim with his postal service as he paid for the service. Luckily he was willing and a refund was issued. The amount was small but I learned a valuable lesson. Worth paying insurance for even the small items.

Send the buyer a link to this thread discussion. See what happens or what comments follow. The truth
always finds a way to emerge given time and discussion.

J

Himespau, do you have a receipt that shows the weight of the package when you mailed it?

I think I may have tossed that receipt, though it's probably still around. I have my half of the delivery confirmation thing, but even if I have the weight saying there was something in the box originally, that doesn't do me any good if he says I packed it incorrectly and that's why it's no longer there as I didn't get insurance.

Please read my reasoning in the thread you quoted.

-Kurt

I have a couple more questions, for the buyer (I know, he's not part of this thread, but I can't help that):

Did the mail carrier hand you the package in person, or leave it on your porch?

Have you asked the mail carrier about it?

Have you filed a police report?

You can see where I'm going with this. If you, the seller, can prove you mailed something to him, and it didn't arrive, and the post office didn't note any damage, then it's a police matter. Notify the police. If the seller sent me a copy of the police report I would probably split the loss with him. Otherwise, well, otherwise.

Good point. I was hoping to contact the post office myself and if they said they didn't notice anything I would tell the buyer that and ask him to take it up with the cops as it's a federal crime to mess with the mail (at that point hopefully he shies away if he really got it), but forgetting my phone at home means contacting the post office is hard today.

How does he argue it was packed incorrectly? All I can make out is a clean cut to the tape, not something I'd expect from being tossed around in transit.

Now that smells. That box was sealed with tape and the box lids were closed as intended by the box manufacturer. What did he want - packing straps?

-Kurt

If he paid you via Paypal and files a claim through them, I don't like your odds. In my experience they tend to side with the buyer no matter what.

^ I dig your new avatar, dude.

Good point. I'd still demand a police report, though.

I'm wondering what the responsibility is of the actual package carrier that dropped it off your doorstep. If the box was in the damaged/open/empty state pictured, was he/she supposed to at least put a notice on it or retain the parcel for the customer (to be picked up in the office instead) so the situation can be investigated further and not just left on the doorstep as a problem for the receipient alone to deal with?? What I hate about the whole dleivery thing is, they seem to not care what is going through their system these days and you are mostly on your own the second the truck drives away from the front of your house.
JMOs

Chombi

Looks like it had delivery confirmation on it.. That's what paypal is concerned with, correct? Whether it got delivered or not. So it's not necessarily open/shut win for the buyer I would think.

That stinks man. If the dude is from these forums, definately invite him to explain here..
I sell a bit here and there on the net.. but ya, this kind of crap worries me everytime. Especially on ebay, even though I know my stuff is top notch and mailed perfect. Ahhh,
Good luck to you .

I did. It sounds like pure conjecture which is my point. It may be spot on or it may not.

If you sell enough on the web, you can self insure (take an occasional hit). But if you just rarely sell on the web, better off with insurance. Note, with bikes in particular, the shippers are all known for rejecting just about any claim due to poor packing. So the insurance is worth less than what you would think.

Myself, I am in the self insured boat.

Personally, I would refund his money if and only if he filed a police report.
(Most scammers have an MO they like to repeat, and filing Police reports is not a part of it.)