Just remember that bearing balls are much heavier than bearing retainers. Not only do the retainers allow the mfg to use fewer balls but it is also lighter.

I usually just toss the retainers as it is more work popping out all the balls and putting new ones in. I'm not a weight weenie and I agree with ftwelder -the more the better up until N-1. I think that at a certain point the counter-rotating balls start to really interfere with each other. There have been a few occasions when N could ALMOST fit one more ball in but not quite and I wonder if that would be OK -but I still pull one ball out anyhow. I never heard the N-2 for headsets. I notice that the Sturmey-Archer hub looks like it has N-2 in the ball ring. I replaced those balls in the '54 I did the other day and just replicated the number of balls it had in there already. I was amazed at how much gunk was still in there when I pulled the lid off after hours in the sonic cleaner. That gunk doesn't want to come out of those races. I think from now on I'm going to pull the ball ring balls whenever I do a S/A hub. As well as replace the 1/4" balls in the retainers. They aren't THAT hard to snap out that it is worth trying to put loose balls when working on a hub.

I'd like to see some proof of that...pictorially...with a digital scale....and of just how much weight you're talking about.

A quarter inch ball is almost exactly 1g each. Bearing material is incredibly hard and dense metal. It has to be to survive. The typical retainer probably doesn't even weigh a gram. If you can cut down 3-4 grams out of each bearing that adds up.

The new high-tech ceramic balls are much lighter than steel balls. That's one of the upsides of them. There are quite a few bearings in a typical bicycle if they can shave a couple dozen grams off the whole bike in just bearings it's a good deal for them. And I'm sure the cheap alloy or flimsy retainer doesn't cost nearly as much to manufacture as a bearing does. And finally it's much quicker to assemble bearings in retainer than loose balls by hand. I'm sure that's got to save them some money/time on the assembly line too.

i guess i shouldn't underestimate the true weight weenies.

Or accountants who run business based on a spreadsheet.

Caged bearings in the headset, and loose bearings in the BB..... simple. I really doubt you will notice a difference in the headset, and it makes for a mess when you service it next time around.

Bearing retainers are ugly.......like bristling braces in a kid's mouth.....but I guess headsets and BBs are not always open like kids mouths....I guess I can live with the next bearing retainer I encounter on my future bikes........
Anyone ever try deleting retainers on an A9??

Chombi

This is from Barnetts:

51. [ ] Fill cup with balls and make sure they are all
touching each other.
52. [ ] Test mate upper cup to upper cone, separate,
and inspect balls.
In the next step, some balls will be removed. The
reason this is done is to prevent headset failure from
brinelling. By leaving the balls room to move around
relative each other it guarantees that any brinelling
that occurs is in random locations. When ball retainers
are used or the cup is left full, the brinelling occurs
in the same places over and over again until it reaches
a noticeable depth and causes headset failure.
53. [ ] Remove two balls from cup if they sit level,
three balls if jumbled.

I started by pulling 1 bearing per cup to start and the problem is gone. When/if I find a nice looking headset I might try the n-2 and see if that makes a difference.

The reason the BB was notchy was lack of grease. I added more grease and 98% of the notchiness is gone.

Thanks for all the input!