Uprighter

Hi all,

I've been itching to restore a roadster or sports tourer, and this week I received an invitation to look through a warehouse of donated/salvaged bikes for my next project. The owner is sure there are at least 14 three-speeds and several more frames. Glancing through, he's seen a Hercules (Birmingham), a Raleigh, a Triumph, and a few more that are probably Raleigh-made.

How would you pick through the inventory? Any advice on determining the maker or age of an English frame sans SA hub or Raleigh serial #? Any thoughts on a particular maker (Hercules vs. Raleigh, etc.)?

I've been a Schwinn guy until now, I need all the help I can get!

clubman 

If it's a roadster/sports you go for, older is almost always better, assuming the condition is comparable. Birmingham Hercs are always interesting.
If I wanted a Sports Tourer, the frame build comes first. Butted tubes, condition, quality components, interesting marque...

David Newton

I think, of the Raleigh clones, the Raleigh brand was upper quality.
If they look "pre-clone" look for quality of details.
As above, older is usually better.

w1gfh

Some claim English bikes peaked about 1970 and scorn those built after that. Personally, I'd grab anything with a dynohub and a Brooks saddle.

wahoonc

I have several 70's vintage and I think they peaked in the early 60's. It has a lot to do with when they switched methods of hardening things like hub cones and other wear parts. Also by the mid 60's they were starting to replace pieces that had previously been made out of steel with plastic. Things like the cable fulcrum stop and the pulley wheels for the cable.

Aaron

w1gfh

I have a spare metal cable fulcrum stop and I'm reluctant to replace my plastic one for it. Isn't gearshift cable better off rubbing against plastic than metal?

sailorbenjamin

I like the pre takover off brands. That usually means anything other than Raleigh, before 1959.
But in the end, I'll take the one with the Brooks saddle. Just make sure it's not torn around the rivets.

Amesja

+1 on getting a good brooks. Get a frame that fits. Check that it is straight and there is no crash damage. Sight down the tubes. Make sure the rear triangle hasn't been pushed to one side or the other. Make sure the forks are not tweaked.

A dynohub is neat but I'd look at the condition of the rims. You'll probably want to upgrade to CR18's if you ride it a lot but if it is just a tweed runner you could be OK with steel. Some of these bikes have been taken care of and others will look like they have been left outside for 30 years.

The Rudge and the raleigh have the nice chainwheels. There are a few other brands with some neat chainwheels too. A fancy chainwheel is a good sign of a higher-end model. The Raleigh will have the Heron carved into it and the Rudge will have the hand -both are quite distinctive.

Go for an AW hub -most of them will be. Stay away from the SW hub but it isn't a major hardship to swap them out.

Also, read everything you can here at Sheldon's site. Keep clicking on links regarding the English 3-speeds. There are literally dozens upon dozens of pages devoted to the E3S there. .

noglider 

The SW is a cool hub, even though it's unreliable. I think I read somewhere that it's good if you don't mind spending time maintaining it. Of course, that negates some of the advantages of an IGH.

I have a 1961 Rudge Sports. I love it. It's currently my daily rider. It doesn't have the fancy chainring. It's plain. But it has a B72 in decent condition and an AW hub. I replaced the 18T sprocket with a 22T, and I put Schwalbe tires and Kool Stop brake shoes on it. The brakes are excellent. I couldn't want anything more in bike brakes. I also like the handling for city traffic. I can turn so suddenly, you can barely see me in traffic.

Amesja

+1 on going up on the cog. I just picked up a 20t and a 22t on my last order to Niagara just to have on stock so when I sell a bike I have restored I can tailor the gearing to what the customer wants.

JohnDThompson 

The SW hub is cool -- if you get a good one. It's eerie-quiet and super-low drag. I have 3 of them here; two work fine, but the third just refuses to cooperate.

jeepr

resale seems best on Raleighs around my area.

wahoonc

I replace all of mine as a matter of course. It is a cable stop, the cable sits in the pocket and shouldn't move. I have had a plastic one fail on a ride and had to cobble something together to hold the bike in second gear to get home. FWIW typically brake cables sit in a metal stop and it doesn't hurt them. Besides they used them for over 30 years . I believe the switch to plastic was a cost saving technique.

Aaron

Picchio Special

This is a very good thread for those of us who don't know these bikes but may stumble across one at some point (though probably not 14).

formicaman

I am the proud new owner of a '74 Raleigh Sports with new wheels, crank, bb, and hub. It is not the fastest bike I've ever owned, nor is it even as comfortable as my old touring frame, but it's the best combination of comfort and handling I've experienced for urban riding. I love it so much I got an old Raleigh-built '68 Dunelt to convert to fixed-gear. Now, I just hope to one day own a chrome one with no modifications whatsoever. Might settle for a Tourist, just because it is gigantic.

rhm

I think all the following points have all been made, and I agree with them all.

--figure out whether you want a 19" or 21" or 23" frame, and get the right size

--get one with both fenders, chain guard, matching grips...

--Learn what Raleigh frames look like. The rear dropout is distinctive (eyelet below the axle), and the lugs are pretty easy to memorize. Go Pre-Raleigh if you can; good pre-Raleigh brands are Phillips, Hercules, Armstrong, Norman, Sun ... but they all got taken over by Raleigh by the end of 1961.

--a cool chain ring is a bonus.

--older is better;

--get a dynohub if you can; they're cool and they're fun and they're very useful.

--AW is better than anything with a coaster brake.

A leather saddle is nice, but that's something you can add later. I'd focus first on getting a good bike.

JohnDThompson 

The cable dosn't (or shouldn't, anyway) contact the fulcrum stop at all; the stop just holds the housing. The problem with the plastic fulcrum stops is that they disintegrate, often at the worst time -- e.g. when downshifting to go up a steep hill so there's lots of tension on the cable. When it happeens, you're stuck in high gear until you replace the fulcrum stop.

w1gfh

Well, I have to hand it to you guys on here for steering me right. Just went out and replaced the plastic cable stop with a metal one. When I removed the clamp I saw that the plastic one was starting to melt! Yikes! Thanks again.

sailorbenjamin

Oh, also look for the really old Raleighs with stainless steel spokes.

Amesja

I think I like stainless spokes now that I found a good source for new ones. The spokes on old Raleighs get NASTY after 30+ years. They turn black and corrode giving off white powder gunk or soak up the oil from the rear hub and pick up blech like no tomorrow.

Replace those buggers, and put CR18 rims on the bike while you are it. It's only a $100 upgrade for both if you can build your own wheels -probably the best thing you can do for the bike to modernize it. Go ahead, all the cool kids are doing it...

Uprighter

Thanks for the motherload of info on vintage English 3-speeds!!!

I'll toss in a couple of tidbits I've learned for those just starting to learn about these bikes. Those in the know, feel free to correct what I get wrong...

Shifters mounted on the top tube are a good sign the bicycle is 70+ years old. Next came brass-faced shifters.

Brooks saddles are always a good sign. Regardless of brand, the more elaborate the underpinning of the saddle, the better the likelihood that the bicycle is of quality.

waverley610

https://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/hanc...gersjuly06.pdf

Welcome to the three speed world Uprighter, do let us see what you pick out .

rhm

+1 on the top tube mounted shifter, AKA the "quadrant" shifter, though they do appear on bikes into the 40's.

Brass faced shifters only look that way because the chrome has peeled away. It is a good look, though!

noglider 

Men's bikes in decent condition are much rarer than ladies' bikes. My theory is that the men's bikes got ridden and destroyed more, leaving the ladies' around, often in excellent condition. But given enough time and patience, you'll find a bike that suits you, and they're rarely expensive.

I'm getting to appreciate the "all steel" aspect of these bikes. It makes them heavy, but there's no question in my mind that it makes them more durable and reliable. These brakes are every bit as good as modern brakes when I put Kool Stop shoes on them. They are excellent. Eventually, I'll put aluminum rims on, but the steels are OK for now. And I guess I'll treat myself to Panaracer Col de la Vie tires next time, though I have no complaints about the Schwalbes I recently installed. Perhaps the worst thing about them is that they're likely to last so long that I won't get to upgrade for a long time.

Amesja

Around my neck of the woods you can find the "Lady" Sports for $30-50. I've bought my share of them for refurb&resale and never paid more than $50 for one (well I paid $60 for that last one with the Mossbrook Saddlebag but I wrote off $10 on that price for the bag in my head