hi all,

some discussion on broken spokes
had 3 (2 today) broken spokes on the rear on my new (old) 72 super course

i replace my own broken spokes and true my own wheels
i dont always get them 'perfect' but pretty good imo
the wheels are dished and pretty true
going by feel - the tension feels good too

my questions are:

-when you start having multiple spoke breaks (the rear on this bike came w/ one at purchase) - should i be thinking to replace the wheels - i had multiple on an old wheel on my schwinn and got fed up replacing spokes all the time so i replaced the wheel

-or i am i being overconfident in my wheel skills - i have felt - ok - its pretty true - its dished - the spokes seem to have adequate and even tension - so i'm good - but i am starting to wonder - maybe i need to get a tension meter to make more certain about tension equity

different posts i read say different things - while uniform tension on each side of the rear (higher on the drive though) is agreed upon - it seems many feel that the job can be done w/o a meter

i have few bikes and they have come to me in many states of disrepair and so far the wheels that i have trued have been good in regards to no repeated spoke breaks (save the schwinn wheel)

so i wonder - did this raleigh - which came w a broken spoke - did this rear wheels spokes get compromised from years of improperly tensioned use and i just need to dump the wheel - OR - are my skills / tools deficient? (ie - get the meter)

sorry for long post - look forward to feedback

yes, make sure the spokes have even tension. If your wheel is a little out of true, it will quickly go out of true, especially if the spokes aren't evenly tensioned. Then you'll break spokes. A taco'ed wheel isn't far behind.

Get the meter.

i'm leaning towards it - i like bike tools (too many freewheel removers to count ) - shoot - i even sprung for a bikesmith cotter press (favorite tool btw though pricey)

tension meter and true stand have been on the list - already have a dish gauge

do u rec the park meter - obviously - they make great stuff

I'm sure no wheel expert but I'd say ask yourself about the conditions under which it started breaking spokes. Always on the drive side? Always a pulling spoke? Of course, the treatment is probably the same regardless of the diagnosis.

The thing is, you don't know how true the rim would be without the spokes holding it in shape. And you don' t know if piecemeal re-tensioning over time has gotten the spoke tensions uneven. So if it was mine and I liked the hub, I consider re-stringing it, probably with new spokes. It will mean taking it apart, which will give you a chance to evaluate the rim. If the rim is pringled then you know you need a new one. New rim or no, re-stringing it will mean you are starting with all the spokes more or less evenly tensioned.

Some might say this isn't a cost-effective approach because used or even new wheels are so inexpensive. But it is rewarding. If you are clever with string and stuff you don't need a truing stand or dish gauge.

Here is my $.02

Unless there was external damage, spokes break because of fatigue. Spokes don't fatigue individually but the whole set more or less fatigues evenly. Some maybe a little bit faster depending on their relative tension. If you have had 3 spokes break so far I would bet the others aren't too far behind.

A rule of thumb is when 4 spokes break on a wheel it is time to rebuild it.

It's $20 for set of 2mm stainless straight-gauge spokes. Why mess around with 30-year old spokes that you don't even know the history of? If this is just a cruiser for occasional riding then maybe let it go for now with a few new spokes. If you plan on riding the bike regularly it's probably a good idea to rebuild the wheels.

thanks for all the feedback thus far everyone

see and i guess thats what makes me wonder - some ideas:

-if u lace new spokes or have purchased a newly laced wheel (all things being equal w rim and hub and spoke quality) and u dont have them tensioned correctly - might u be good for awhile? just because there new and in good condition - i wonder how quickly the spokes degrade or fatigue when out of tension? (obviously many factors at play in regards to spoke lifespan)

-if the spokes are fatigued - getting them properly tensioned? might it buy u much time? or are the spokes doomed at that point?

-also - is there a greater durability w front as to rear spokes? i mean - poorly tensioned or fatigued spokes - might they 'live' longer in the front as it would seem that its the rear torque (or i am wrong) that deals the spokes death blow?

1. It depends on how much the bike is ridden and how (weight, terrain.) If the bike is never ridden the wheel will last forever. But an improperly tensioned wheel will wear faster than one that is even and correctly tensioned. A wheel is s dynamic system that flexes and shares the load. No one spoke ever is carrying all the load and stress on the wheel. If one spoke is way out of range then the wheel is going to be flexing more at that point and the more if flexes the quicker it will fatigue.

2. Properly tensioned wheels will wear slower. But spokes don't "heal." Fatigue does not go away. You can slow down the process but damage done in the past will still be there. A wheel can have 70% of it's life used up in a year or so of poor tension and if the wheel is worked on and set up correctly it'll still only have 30% of it's theoretical lifespan but that last 30% can be stretched out by slowing down the damage to the absolute minimal amount of wear and degradation. Maybe another couple of years can be milked out of the wheel but never as much as that wheel had potential too had that initial period of neglect been avoided early on.

C. Rear wheels wear out faster because they are exposed to a greater load. The weight bias of bicycles puts more weight on the rear wheel and many people put more load on the rear wheel by loading cargo or kids out back. Plus there is also drive stress on the rear wheel. To make matters worse most modern derailleur bikes have dished wheels putting even more stress on the drive side due to all those silly gears in the way of proper even spoke angles. Having properly tensioned spokes in the rear wheel is even more important.

Are the spokes breaking at the head? Is there play at the spoke holes on the hub? Use spoke washers at the hub if you answered yes to both questions.

Otherwise, it's probably improper tension.

good stuff amesja

ofg - spokes break at the end - no play at the holes on the hub - i just was working on the wheel - spent alot of time on it - going through destressing and retruing - took it for a few sprints and some hill (ok driveway) climbing - held up well - honestly - i never spent much time on the destressing procress before - usually that first ride after truing would have its initial 'pings' - which i understand leads to untruing and bad things

will prob take the bike out for a little run later and see how it goes

The bike is almost 40 years old and if these are the original wheels the spokes are probably at the end of their useful lifespan... 3 broken spokes is an indication that they are suffering from fatigue, either through improper tension or simply from old age.

If the hub and rim are in good condition and you want to stay wiith original parts I would rebuild or have have the wheel rebuilt with new stainless spokes.

Building a wheel from old parts is harder than using new parts as you will be dealing with parts that are usually less then perfect but good results can be attained if the parts are sound and not worn.

A tension meter is a useful tool, especially when wheel building is something you do on an occasional basis and do not have a good sense of what proper spoke tension should be.

yeah i caved and purchased a park tension meter this morning - wont go to waste - i can see i'm headed towards the wheel building

Try measuring the tension on the same spoke five times in a row without changing the tension. Did you get the same results every time, some of the time, or never?

When I tried the Park Tension Meter, I did not get consistent results. And, I was warned of this by a local and sincere bicycle mechanic Guru. These days, because I cannot afford a decent spoke tension meter ($250.00+ where I live), I go by sound, not feel or measurement. I would prefer measurement but sound is much more accurate than feel, in my opinion.

A spoke under no tension will not ring. A spoke under some tension will ring, and the greater the tension (up to a point), the crisper or higher the note the spoke will produce when struck. It is also important to note that the spokes must all be the same to offer similar notes under equal tensions.

This is how I tension spokes and seek to get them even. I have had no problems, since I started doing wheels this way...

Get rid of the wobble and hop. Now, use a pencil or some other object to lightly strike every spoke on one side of the wheel, and then the other, just to get a feel for where you are at. My guess is that you will be able to find several different notes.

Now, focus on one side of the wheel, striking the spokes and listening for the deader rings or lower notes. Tighten/loosen slightly to match the note produced with the other spokes. This is not a one shot process. Work at it slowly and recheck true frequently. You are trying to get the same musical note from each spoke.

Now, check for feel of the spokes. Do they feel tight enough or a bit loose? If too loose, tighten up every spoke the exact same amount and check all parameters again, ensure hop and wobble free, coupled with matching sounds.

At the end of the day, the wheel should be hop and wobble free (more or less) and the spokes will share the load as evenly as the wheel will allow.

Good advice there Sixty Fiver!

You've just reminded me of another job I'd forgotten about - source spokes and rebuild the 58 year old original wheels on my 1953 Claud Butler (fixed wheel). I had three front spokes go when I tried my first track stand, replaced them with new but am worried about the rest. Hubs are Airlite small flange nutted with double fixed rear threads, rims are alloy Conloy "Constrictor" and I really don't want to change them for anything newer. Respoking is the answer and with no dish in the rear it should be simple?

Randy, what happens if you get all the drive side spokes to sound the same, the wheel is true, but you get different tones from the non drive side spokes. and when you try to retension them to get the same tone , it goes out of true? I ask bc this happened to me and I am kind of stumped. been riding the wheel and it has stayed true but occasionally when pedaling i hear a faint knocking.

very nearly everytime. Admittedly there's a little technique to getting consistent results with the TM-1 (you gotta take your readings from about the same spot on each spoke) but its a reliably accurate tool when used properly IME.

@ Chris Chicago, if the wheel is true and the Drive side Tension is even you are good even if you get some different tones from the NDS.

It is time for new spokes, period.

while the rim is unlaced, place it on a flat surface and note where and how much it might be untrue. then flip it and double check. keep the marks with a grease pencil or similar.
Then decide if the rim can be reused. if 5mm or more off, time for a new rim.
Check the rim before you buy new spokes, the new rim may not have the same spoke seat diameter.

thanks Zaphod

+1. I use sound also. But be aware that this is more complex than it seems. A spoke's actual tension is affected by the tension of the spokes it crosses, especially the spoke it crosses closest to the rim. (The crossing immediately at the hub flange doesn't count because the spokes don't touch.) If a spoke is too tight or loose it will tighten or loosen that crossing spoke, and vice versa.

Furthermore when you pluck or strike a spoke the sound is produced by four spoke segments, that spoke above and below its outer crossing and the crossing spoke above and below that crossing. To do the sound thing right you should lightly hold the crossing spoke at least, and also the inside segments of both spokes. That way you'll hear only the single segment and the result is much less confusing.

The pitch can vary spoke to spoke for other reasons too. If a spoke is slightly thinner it will sound higher for the same tension. A spoke's tension can be higher or lower than the average because it is required to keep a slightly warped rim in true.

Which brings up the last thing. Always tweak spokes in groups of four adjacent spokes. That way you keep the trailing/leading spoke tension balanced. To fix lateral warp tighten two on one side, loosen two on the other. To fix a runout warp, tighten or loosen all four. Work in small changes because the effect will be four times what you think it is.

One thing you learn from all this is that it is much easier if you start with spokes more or less correct. Once they get out of whack you really can't get them back in balance again without starting over. This is why re-stringing a wheel might be the best solution.

The non-drive side of the rear wheel will never be under as much tension as will the drive side. As a result, the musical note, on the non-drive side, will not be as high, or crisp, as that of the drive side.

I you mean you are getting different sounds from one side, or the other, then you still need to fiddle with the spokes. You might, and probably will, have to work from side to side a bit, as I do, to get them all right. However, keep in mind...

This is a technique suggested to me by more than one professional bike mechanic(that is not saying a great deal but it is true). A technique that must start with understanding, and then be refined with practice. Once you get it, you will be surprised at how even a set of notes each side of the wheel can produce. If the notes are the same, and the spokes are the same, then the tensions will be the same. But not side to side. The non-drive will always be under less tension and not sing as nice a song.

I have to admit that at first this hocus pocus magic musical bell thing left me a bit skeptical. I am a retired industrial mechanic and we always measured things, right down to thousandths of an inch, often times using laser assisted instruments. Professionals who knew exactly what they were doing.

Imagine me, trying to tell myself that my ears are delicate instruments, capable of differentiating between closely similar musical notes. Good grief, such nonsense is unheard of, or so I've heard.

i sincerely appreciate all the discussion and feedback on this guys - just got back from a 20 miler and no problems with the wheel - but i satyed local and i like to take my bikes out far and the problem here with this bike is that the chainstays are very tight as they move into the BB - all my other bikes - near the bb the inner chainstay is 'hollowed out' a bit to give more clearance - this is important in the whole story of the first break the other day - with this bike i cant ride a broken spoke home - it wobbles too much and rubs the stay - this morning when i broke 2 spokes i was lucky that i brought a few to replace on the road - otherwise i woulda been stranded again - anyway - i love this bike - rides and fits so nice

on another note - as much as i would like to wheel build - its gotta be just as easy to pick up a new rear at my LBS - they have em for $40

edit - i'm still glad i'm getting the park meter though

The Park tool is a great thing to have, when used properly. I would not build a wheel from scratch without it, or one of the better tools, if I could justify it. Yes, you can 'tune by ear', but to make a good wheel, nothing beats science.

I have the tension meter, the dishing gauge and a TS-2 truing stand. Indispensable.

Just look at how many people think they can tune a guitar and fail to notice when they're horribly out of tune. IME your ears are only reliable if you've proven to yourself that you have good pitch. Lots of people have it. Lots of people don't have it, and lots of people think they have it but don't (we've all been subjected to some of those ;-) ). And you can develop it if you don't have it. Like by building lots of wheels...or tuning that g--d--- guitar!!

if only we could auto-tune spokes!

This. My experience has been that when spokes break in small bunches, if you check the others you'll find they're not far behind. If this is a rider, you'll want the replacement spokes to also fatigue evenly over time, so it would be prudent to rebuild the wheel rather than replace them one at a time as they break.

I'm thinking it's time to rebuild.

To the tune of middle C.


Oh wait, that's a different era of bicycles.

What a great thread - Another one to print out for my notebook THANKS...