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Shill bidding on eBay

Old 09-08-11, 10:23 AM
  #26  
dbakl
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I've been buying and selling on ebay since it started. I win alot of stuff but lose just as much. Honestly, unless its super rare there's going to be another next week. The pantagraphed shifters are cool, but they're not worth even a hundred to me...

If cyclomondo made them, contact him direct and see if he'll set a price.
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Old 09-08-11, 11:30 AM
  #27  
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I wonder if there are sites that you can go to for shill bidding... kind of an unethical seller's version of a sniping site.
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Old 09-08-11, 11:32 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by tugrul View Post
Those numbers can't be right.

The winner has 6744 bids on 4118 items in the last 30 days?

For the runner's up its 8573, 5861, 6626, 6075, 6200, 5822, 6014, 7267 bids in the last 30 days?

It isn't until the guy who bid 77.89 where the bids drops to 105 in the last 30 days.

WTF?

Am I missing an opportunity to work part time from home for big bucks?

Bid on everything starting at $1?
I sold a Cinelli stem a while back and noticed those kinds of numbers from a bidder, so I looked it up. Turns out it's a company on the west coast that buys up tons of stuff and ships to Asia to resell.
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Old 09-08-11, 11:38 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
How can you see the reason behind a bid withdrawal? I've had a couple of scares lately when I've been outbid on something with a couple of days to go so I go on and buy what I wanted from another source for the price I want and suddenly with an hour or so left I get an e-mail saying that the bid was withdrawn and I'm now the high bidder. Fortunately, in every case there's a bidding war with a couple of minutes left that wins it, but a lot of times it's something moderately expensive that I don't want two of. I know I shouldn't bid so early, but I figure that's the max I'll pay so whatever and then when I'm outbid, I figure it's a binding contract that the person can't get out of so I'm off the hook and should go buy what I want from another source. Sure there are good deals and hard to find things on e-bay, but I often find it's not worth the hassle and good deals are harder and harder to come by.
Yet another reason to snipe. You can cancel as long as you're still outside the proscribed end-of-auction time parameter. For the service I use I believe it's 6 minutes. The only reason I can see for not sniping is if you're worried about losing something with a BIN option.
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Old 09-08-11, 12:40 PM
  #30  
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I also noticed that maybe some sellers might be setting up their own fake sniper bidding to push the price up by starting a possible last minute bidding frenzy. I think this when I'n the only bidder on a "mundane" item and a sniper seems to just jump in at the last couple of mnutes. I would think that snipers usually set their systems up on more popular items.
I usually let go of the item if I sense this and let the sniper win. Sure enough, most of the time, an identical item sometimes with slightly different pics and descriptions does come up later again for auction from the same or similar seller.....

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Last edited by Chombi; 09-08-11 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 09-08-11, 12:57 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by due ruote View Post
Yet another reason to snipe. You can cancel as long as you're still outside the proscribed end-of-auction time parameter. For the service I use I believe it's 6 minutes. The only reason I can see for not sniping is if you're worried about losing something with a BIN option.
I do both. If I'm really interested in something and don't think it'll reach it's BIN price I'll put in a lowball bid which negates the
BIN price, and then set up a snipe with the max I'm willing to pay. If I get outsniped so be it.

as for the pedals, look at the cages, pretty obvious they're different from looking at the quill.

$400 panto'd shifters, $400 plus Super Record headsets, $500 Suntour superbe brakes, not even the
hidden spring variety. I REALLY should have salted away all the stuff one could have bought for
pennies on the dollar 10 years ago. . . sigh.

Marty
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Old 09-08-11, 02:02 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by cpsqlrwn View Post
You are suggesting that this guy bid, logged out, then logged in as a different user and bid again, and then repeated the process multiple times. The only way we would know for sure that this happened was if we could trace the IP address of the computer he logged in on. That is assuming he was not so organized as to have machines on different networks doing the bidding. Now that would be elaborate.
That's not particularly elaborate these days.

If these people have time to put in thousands of bids over 30 days, I'm sure they have time to help each other out *wink* *nod*.
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Old 09-08-11, 02:09 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by 20grit View Post
I just bought a mountain bike off ebay a month or so ago. Right at the last minute, I was outbid and lost the auction. Then I get a notice saying the bidder had retracted their bid. Basically the owner had ran my bid til they hit my max and then took it back. I'm ok with it because I had set the max at the amount I was willing to pay. It ended up costing me $40, not a big deal.

Happens all the time in various ways.

If this happened to me, I would agree to buy the item at my highest bid before the shill's first bid. I would not agree to buy it at my max bid because this was only exposed due to the actions of the shill.

The action of the shill corrupted the auction from the moment he first bid, onward, but not prior to that bid.
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Old 09-08-11, 02:10 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by cpsqlrwn View Post
OK, I follow your logic. I agree that it is shady that the bidder went right to $400 and there were 20 minutes left and he had to know that the high bid was only $.90 higher and yet he refused to outbid him. But you're saying that these 6 shill bids were put in by 6 different users. That's quite an elaborate method for increasing the price when the moderator (eBay) doesn't really appear to give a **** about it anyway, don't you think? And some of your statements are not accurate and don't reasonably draw the conclusions you are suggesting. Perhaps you're a member of media. Only one of the bids was actually within a minute of the prior bid. And the fact that the bids are each $50 higher means nothing. I don't think those dots connect. That happens all the time in the last hour of an auction when a high bid exists. You are suggesting that this guy bid, logged out, then logged in as a different user and bid again, and then repeated the process multiple times. The only way we would know for sure that this happened was if we could trace the IP address of the computer he logged in on. That is assuming he was not so organized as to have machines on different networks doing the bidding. Now that would be elaborate. I agree that this last bidder was a shill and he was lucky the way the numbers worked out. He didn't have to retract. But I would say in a court of law you couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that all those other bids were shills unless you had the IP address and knew they originated from the same physical location. You can't prove that conclusion just by the bid history which shows six different bidders in a natural progression. Are these bidders from the same geographic location? Is there a history of them having bid on the same item before? Give me some hard evidence. And stop jumping from A to C without B. I remain unconvinced.
Wrong, I'm saying (more likely) that it is a small group of buds that shill for each other, and he called / texted / e-m'd said buds in advance, told them to be ready to bid in $50 increments (you really think all of those $50-higher bids at about sixty second intervals, by seven different IDs, is a coincidence? If so, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!), then texted or conference-called the 'go' command.

EBay gets more money, the sellers get more money, why should any of them try to prevent this (except the buyer, who got hosed)???

I can tell you that, in all sincerity, I've probably never seen a more clear-cut case of (perfectly executed) shill bidding in over a decade of active eBaying (and I've seen some pretty bad doo-doo go down on eBay).

No, it can't be proven in a court of law - that's kind of the whole point!
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Old 09-08-11, 02:12 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Mike Mills View Post
If this happened to me, I would agree to buy the item at my highest bid before the shill's first bid. I would not agree to buy it at my max bid because this was only exposed due to the actions of the shill.

The action of the shill corrupted the auction from the moment he first bid, onward, but not prior to that bid.
Exactly. I've occasionally offered to do the same (but never had the offer accepted, of course...).
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Old 09-08-11, 02:31 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by due ruote View Post
Yet another reason to snipe. You can cancel as long as you're still outside the proscribed end-of-auction time parameter. For the service I use I believe it's 6 minutes. The only reason I can see for not sniping is if you're worried about losing something with a BIN option.
I was once looking for a long out of print boat building book on ebay. There were several up for auction, all with different end times. Average top bid was in the low $20's. I bid on one, lost in the last 30sec's. Bid on another, same thing. And again. I'm bidding upwards of $40 and still loosing in the last 30 seconds. WTF. Same winner on all auctions.
Thats when I found out about auto bidding engines.
Discovered winner was a book reseller. Winner was then reselling in his physical and eBay store.
I could have purchased book from him ($30 something), or wait for another auction.
I was PO'd.
Item did not show up for another month or so. MY first bid was $20, and that held until last day of auction. Reseller then bid twice to bcome top bidder. Auction ended around midnight, so I stayed up and bid $99.00, about a minute before auction ended. His sniping engine then bid $99.50 to win.
The next time the that particular book came up on ebay, I got it for $20.00.
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Old 09-08-11, 02:42 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Mike Mills View Post
If this happened to me, I would agree to buy the item at my highest bid before the shill's first bid. I would not agree to buy it at my max bid because this was only exposed due to the actions of the shill.

The action of the shill corrupted the auction from the moment he first bid, onward, but not prior to that bid.
This is kind of interesting because we have two things going on here that are shady/not by the rules and eBay, for the most part, allows both of them to occur with little punishment. We have the shill bidding which we all acknowledge as out and out stealing. But we also have the buyer who really has the option of refusing to pay and my understanding is that eBay really does nothing about that in terms of penalties or sanctions. Perhaps as buyers, we should start refusing to pay when we suspect an auction is shill bid. But that would also mean giving up the merchandise we want. Quick question.... Do you think the next to last bid on this DeRosa auction that just ended was a shill bid or just a new user hoping to get a DeRosa on the cheap?
https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=270810777417
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Old 09-08-11, 02:44 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by 753proguy View Post
Exactly. I've occasionally offered to do the same (but never had the offer accepted, of course...).
Well, I think that is an acceptable outcome. Basically, the shill corrupted the auction. Shill bidding should not be allowed to hurt the buyer. By exposing the buyer's maximum offer which then becomes the sales price, you would be completely violating the buyer protections supposedly offered by ebay. In this way, shill bidding also hurts ebay.
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Old 09-08-11, 02:49 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by cpsqlrwn View Post
. . .Quick question.... Do you think the next to last bid on this DeRosa auction that just ended was a shill bid or just a new user hoping to get a DeRosa on the cheap?
https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=270810777417
Next to last bidder has 2 bids total in ebay, both on this bike, bid 300 then the $900 bid. I'm thinking new user looking for
a bargain.
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Old 09-08-11, 02:51 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by cpsqlrwn View Post
This is kind of interesting because we have two things going on here that are shady/not by the rules and eBay, for the most part, allows both of them to occur with little punishment. We have the shill bidding which we all acknowledge as out and out stealing. But we also have the buyer who really has the option of refusing to pay and my understanding is that eBay really does nothing about that in terms of penalties or sanctions. Perhaps as buyers, we should start refusing to pay when we suspect an auction is shill bid. But that would also mean giving up the merchandise we want. Quick question.... Do you think the next to last bid on this DeRosa auction that just ended was a shill bid or just a new user hoping to get a DeRosa on the cheap?
https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=270810777417
That zero-FB bidder made an early bid of $300, in addition to the later bid, so no, imo that wasn't a shill, but who knows? Never bid more than you are willing to pay, and if you are a heavy user, get a sniping service. www.auctionstealer.com is a good one. You basically can't be shilled if you only snipe with three seconds to go....

Edit: lotek beat me to it!! What he said.

Last edited by 753proguy; 09-08-11 at 02:53 PM. Reason: added 'lotek beat me to it' comment.
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Old 09-08-11, 02:56 PM
  #41  
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This auction is the perfect illustration of why one should not get emotional about anything up for auction on Ebay.

$400? Why the winning bidder even bothered to put in such a fanciful amount flabergasts me. Maybe $200 simply to ensure the win, but $400? They're nice, but they're reproductions. I'm sure Gred Softley would sell flat rate for $100 as for a time he was doing just that.

I stick with a number I will not go over - no shill bidder is going to be responsible for any buyer's remorse where I'm concerned. There's lots more bike parts out there, and so what if it takes a little longer to put all the pieces together?

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Old 09-08-11, 02:59 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by cpsqlrwn View Post
This is kind of interesting because we have two things going on here that are shady/not by the rules and eBay, for the most part, allows both of them to occur with little punishment. We have the shill bidding which we all acknowledge as out and out stealing. But we also have the buyer who really has the option of refusing to pay and my understanding is that eBay really does nothing about that in terms of penalties or sanctions. Perhaps as buyers, we should start refusing to pay when we suspect an auction is shill bid. But that would also mean giving up the merchandise we want. Quick question.... Do you think the next to last bid on this DeRosa auction that just ended was a shill bid or just a new user hoping to get a DeRosa on the cheap?
https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=270810777417
Looks suspicious,but maybe it's just my negative outlook on Ebay coupled with our disintegrating society.
We are riddled with greed and corruption. (Loud scraping sound as I put away my soapbox)
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Old 09-08-11, 03:23 PM
  #43  
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If you look at the bid history it seems that it is not "buds" as someone mentioned but a software program. The bids don't make sense and the sheer # of bids that each of the last "losers" have made in the last 30 days are not real, or at least completed. wtf is going on?
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Old 09-08-11, 03:28 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 753proguy View Post
Once the $400 shill bid exposed the mark's max., the shill bidding stopped. Bid retraction not required. Coincidence? I think not. One of the shills has over 6000 bids in the past 30 days????
the winning bidder has a similar profile as the apparent shill bidders.. multiple thousand bids in the last 30 days. i don't think anyone really won the auction

as for organized shill bidding.. i wouldn't be surprised if there was a service out there that allowed you to bid up your auction using a massive collection of dummy accounts
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Old 09-08-11, 04:53 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Tundra_Man View Post
That's funny. Reminds me of when we bought our most recent house. We were in need of a dining room set and my mom found a nice one at a local used furniture/antiques house. She ooed and aahed over it and asked a bunch of questions, then called us up and told us to come check it out.

We couldn't get out to the store until a few hours later. When we saw the dining room set, we agreed that it was exactly what we wanted. I attempted to haggle on the price, but the owner was unsually firm. After some unsuccessful negotiation, I finally agreed to pay asking price.

As I was paying for the set, the owner informed me that the reason he had been so firm on the price was because a lady had just been in the store that morning and had made a big deal out of the table, and the owner was certain she would return with her son and daughter-in-law to purchase it.
My similar circumstance...

Wife and I out furniture shopping when me moved to MN. Looking at a bedroom suite. Guy comes and asks if he can help, we shoo him away while we're looking. I love to haggle, especially furniture and jewelry...

He comes back, (paraphrased) "So ma'am, what do you think of that bed.?"

Wife, "I think it's the most beautiful bed I've ever seen in my life!".

$50 discount on $2100 of furniture.

Damnit.
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Old 09-08-11, 05:07 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by khatfull View Post

Wife, "I think it's the most beautiful bed I've ever seen in my life!".
$50 discount on $2100 of furniture.
Damnit.
Don't cha just hate that? But did you still try the good cop bad cop?
I'm usually the stupid cop. :>
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Old 09-08-11, 05:18 PM
  #47  
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I think the bid numbers and number of items bid on by these bidders is the most interesting aspect. I have done a fair amount of work with the eBay API. It is pretty easy for a decent programmer to easily build a bot to do whatever they want. That is all the sniping engines are after all. I could easily build a bidding engine for good purposes (to automatically buy certain items in bulk for resale) or bad purposes (to shill bid for my sales). I could make that engine very, very smart and it could use many logins, etc. To go to that much trouble though without a high volume item to sell, and panto'ed levers ain't that, would seem excessive. In this case the suspect bidders also seem to be bidding on a wide variety of items across hundreds or thousands of eBay categories. Very interesting.

P.S. I used to build automated trading systems for the financial markets that were driven by mathematical models. Ebay is easy to game.
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Old 09-08-11, 06:25 PM
  #48  
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I don't buy the shill bidding angle on this. If a seller is going to "shill" they just need to put in a single bid for top dollar. From my own recent experience, there seems to be a vintage bike craze going on in the far-east. Earlier this year I sold a run-of-the-mill DuraAce front derailleur for over $125. Nothing note worthy about, except 2 guys decided they both "had" to have it and put in huge bids.
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Old 09-08-11, 06:38 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by cpsqlrwn View Post
First off, let me say that I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that shill bidding goes on and costs all of us money from time to time. But I am a liitle perplexed as to how you conclude from the bidding on this particular item that shill bidding took place. My understanding is that most of the time shill bidding is evident from bids from user names with little or no history (user names created expressly for the purpose of raising prices but not winning items). This item had nothing but veteran eBay buyers. And I think the fact that one bidder was smart enough to just go over $400 anticipating a $400 bid by someone else is not evidence of shill bidding. Was there a retraction on this item? I didn't notice one. Please enlighten me as to your thought process on this and further my education please.
Agreed. I've seen what I thought was shill bidding but this isn't one of them. Pantographed anything goes for ridiculous prices these days.

Shills also run the risk of being on the hook if nobody outbids them.

I was watching this item just out of curiosity because it seemed crazy what people were bidding. Maybe it's legit, but it looked to me like some shill bidding was going on.
https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=170688593048
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Old 09-08-11, 09:19 PM
  #50  
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Eagle, CO
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Bikes: too many or not enough

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Shill bidding or not the fact that most of the last few bidders had supposedly literally been bidding more than once every 5 minutes, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for the last 30 days at least is interesting. Does anyone think that is a real vintage bike enthusiast? Does anyone think it is a real person? And these bids are on thousands of items covering hundreds of product categories. These bidders are either bots, or multiple people using the same id in shifts or in parallel (can you do that on eBay). And why eBay can't do some simple analysis to identify these kinds of bidders and at least make sure they are following the rules is also interesting. I have to assume eBay does do some kind of fraud analysis of the auction data and that they do allow shopping bots or allow a bidder id to be used simultaneously by a group of people.
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70 Pogliaghi ItalCorse, 72 De Rosa, 72 Masi Gran Criterium, 75 Masi Gran Criterium, 77 Melton, 79 Bianchi Super Leggera, 79 Gios Super Record, 81 Picchio Special, 82 Guerciotti Super Record, 82 Colnago Profil CX, 83 Colnago Superissimo, 84 Fuso





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