To be clear, I am not asking how much this bike is worth (I already have an idea of general worth). But, rather than confine to the valuation forum, I figured that I'd ask the bigger group how much a minor dent affects the value of a blue chip bike. On a run of the mill user bike, I'd guess not too much. On a high end collectable bike, I'd guess a lot (20% hit to value?). But, how does it affect value when you start to push the boundary of a collectable bike (+_ $1000 bike) and move towards the rarified air of blue chip collectables such as the '74 Carlsbad Masi?

This bike has many of the premium collectable points of Carlsbad Masi (matching pump, Masi/3tttt bars, original components, and is in generally very nice condition). But, when i moved the cable clips to see how much rust was under, I found a pea sized dent under the middle clip, as well as good sized chip under the front clip.

This, and the large size, definitely knock it out of the crazy price zone (such as the one that went for $3700 last week on the bay). But, does it knock it back down to the solid middle ground (2k range), or somewhere higher or lower?

I can research the selling prices of Masis all day long. But, there aren't a lot of data points for blue chip bikes with relatively singular flaws.

Any thoughts?

Mods - If I'm splitting hairs on the question, feel free to move this to the valuation forum. I posted it here in hopes of a broader conversation about the impact of condition to the value of a blue chip bike.

That's a beautiful bicycle!

First of all, that is a "grail" bike for me, and I have a line on one here in St. Paul.

A 1974 to be sure.

I had an opportunity to buy a different 1974 last winter, but I was unsuccessful.

That one had a whopper of a dent in the top tube that made yours look inconsequential.

I quickly talked to a nationally "esteemed" builder from Minneapolis about the costs to replace a top tube.

I then put in a bid that was near the seller's asking, and I didn't get the Masi.

The other bidder didn't care about the large dent and simply paid the seller.

In that case, the dent made little difference in the selling price.

I dunno, but that doesn't look "minor" It's kinda deep. I would consider a shallow crease minor like when a tube hits a sharp corner, and the paint does not chip off, but that almost looks like someone shot the tube with a bullet. Do you know what caused it? The frame is a good candidate for a full frame repaint and repair of the dent as much as it can be repaired. I suspect most restorers will try to flatten out most of the dent with straightening blocks but finish it off with some filler.
Unfortunately, Collectors of high line Italian classic bikes tend to be perfectionists and will ask for quite a bit from the price a perfect one would have sold if they see that much of a dent. I would say 20% off from the frameset as-is at a minimum would not be surprising. You can have the frame restored/repainted and maybe recover some of that money. You might also consider parting the bike out if you want to make the most money out of it, but that would be a shame as the components and frame seems to be original to each other. I vote for a full resto....but then you might not want to sell it once it's done!.........and we would certainly understand!.....

Chombi

just move the cable guide over a little.

imo, this would stop most from buying without deducting the costs of a repair. in your case, it ranges from a spot fix/repaint to a tube replacement/repaint. due to the storied history, that's roughly -$500.

Hard to say, but to me that is not minor. "Minor" on a race bike is a bar slap on the top-tube from a fall. One that is not creased, and has not disturbed the paint. Something like that does not bother me too much, and one of my favorite bikes has one.

What you have there should be repaired professionaly, and would require re-painting the frame after (or at least re-painting the top tube and matching the patina if you can find a shop that would do that). And that's where a huge difference in value is . Original bikes are worth far more than refinished ones.

But it depends on the buyer. The right person may want to take that on as a project and pay well for it. The larger size may work to your advantage as well. 62cm Masi's are probably not that common and two buyers may fight over it. To me it would be worth 40-50% less than the exact same condition bike without the damage, but who knows what will happen in a live auction.

That dent looks worse than it is from the rust and the slight deformation in the metal from whatever hit it. After cleaning and a go-over with frame blocks, it'll look much better - ready for some silver filler. The damage isn't as terminal as some of you fellows make it sound (if anything, it's the thought of the cost that stifles restoration possibilities).

Furthermore, a talented painter could conceivably blend a top tube repaint onto that bike. Matching the patina is the main issue in this case.

-Kurt

IMO, dents are a deal killer unless it's going to be a beater or a total restoration. The cost of repair just wipes out the resale unless you get a screaming good deal on a rare find and can absorb the repair. So, to answer your question, subtract the cost of the repair and that's how much it effects the price....If I'm the buyer.

+1 Put me in the "not minor" camp. The rust just highlights it. I would have it professionally repaired, with just that area repainted. I would OA those clamps as well.

If I was the buyer, the deduct would be about 2X the repair minimum, to cover any surprises.

But someone who really, really wants that bike, in that color, in that size, and so on, might act with their heart and not discount it at all. In an auction environment, you will need two of these people, which is very possible.

Very repairable, and should not affect value if done correctly.

Thanks for all the good replies fellas. This is exactly what I'm looking for, especially any thoughts on specific de-valuation.

I'm not sure how it was damaged. A friend of mine bought it on the Bay about 3-4 years ago. He was interested in one of my bikes and we struck a tentative deal to trade him my bike, a wheelset that he needs, and a stack of cash for the Masi. I then noticed that the clamps were applied at an angle and that there was some paint loss at the edges. I had figured that the clamps were applied at an angle to somehow facilitate cable flow. Turns out that the previous owner was trying to hide the damage..... What a skunk. My friend is an old friend who's as honest as the day as long, so I know that he was genuinely unaware of the dent....

I will likely still buy the bike, and will likely just neutralize the existing rust and leave as is. For a buyer like me, I'd much rather take on a bike that's had little or not restoration and live with any imperfections. The dent is really rather small, and I don't think that you could roll much out of it. I'd guess that the likely repair option is to fill and touch up the paint.

I wouldn't undertake that unless I was very confident that the shop could do a near-perfect job.... I sure wouldn't ever, ever part it out.... There's a special place in hell for anyone that would part out a stock Confente-era Masi. The gruppos are very specific to the bike (1973 RDs, Martano rims, 3ttt bars, etc.) and it would be a sin to separate any of it.

Anyone want to weigh in on hard, but hypothetical, numbers?

If, for argument's sake, a typical Carlsbad Masi is worth $2000-2500, and some cherry examples can fetch $3700 (small size in excellent condition, as a later one fetched recently on Ebay), what would something like this likely fetch? Meaning, a complete and original example in otherwise nice condition that was in a large size (probable negative) and had a dent (definite negative)?

Am I wrong in thinking that this would fall somewhere in the $1700-2000 range? Am I too optimistic? What about the long term implications? When typical Carlsbad Masis fetch 5k, how will something like this fare? 3k or 4.5 k?

Oh, I will probably ditch the clamps entirely (OA wouldn't permanently cure their ails) and replace with some NOS clamps after cleaning and coating the problem areas.

The tape will be switched to cotton and the whole frame will have a nice cleaning and wax.....

I sold a flip last season with a far FAR less noticeable dent that that one, and I took 1/3 off my normal market price.
- Had it been disclosed to me to begin with, I would not have bought it.

However - that was a $300 bike: This bike is worth more, is worth buying, and worth repairing professionally.
The repair must still be disclosed to the buyer though.

To be clear, I intend to keep this as part of the permanent (or at least long term) collection.

Here's a pic or two of the dent on the Gran Criterium I was interested in:






I was quoted around $350 for top tube replacement and paint, and that doesn't get into the issues of a total repaint.

How do you color match a beat frame, sun damage, and patina galore?

Probably better I didn't get the bike.

The one I've found is rock solid.

That's not a dent, that's a kink.

There are painters' tricks in existence that allow a color to be sprayed with less gloss than normal, to preserve the patinaed look.

-Kurt

Chris Kvale and I talked about that as well.

We also discussed the additional costs.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how it got there, as I wasn't in the mood to take on the project.

Too many irons in the fire.

...and ultimately I will be rewarded with a very nice example for my patience.

Look forward to hearing more and seeing photos....

Interesting that your blue on had White/White downtube decals....

Mine has White/Yellow, which is rare compared to Yellow/White....

That bike's been Shot. Call the CSI squad.

Seriously, this bike could still be worth $2k in a competitive market. Why?
1974 serial number, Masi star ring american flag seat tube bands, Masi pump, Champagne color. Would be worth more with a twin plate crown... oh well.
Without the dent? +$500 to 800. more.
Would be worth more in a smaller size, tall guys always get the deals.

I would arrest the rust. I would not replace the top tube. I have had a number repainted for various sins, but they all have been repainted by others prior to my purchase. The advantage is I get to select the color.

The thought of replacing a tube rubs me the wrong way. Gut feeling more than a rationally rooted one.

If a bike has a soul, it was born in the torch of the builder, and putting another flame to it feels wrong.

+1. I'll either keep her as she is (after stopping the rust) or, at most, look into rubbing out and filling the dent, followed by a bit of touch-up. But, I heavily lean toward the former choice....

I wouldn't replace the top tube as that bb size dent won't make this tube fail. Frame blocks won't do much for this particular dent. Filler and a fade in paint job by someone like Cyclart would be the ticket in my opinion.

Maybe - 20%

+1 but I expect matching the paint will be pretty difficult.

As for what it does to the value, good question, but not one for anyone but a potential buyer to answer. It's a bird-in-hand versus bird-in-bush conundrum; when you compare the value of a real bike to that of a hypothetical bike, you get a hypothetical result.

Odd dent, but it doesn't look too bad. Devalue loss is hard to calculate, but if you had planned a total restore, it might add a hundred or 2 to that price. If total restore is well into the future, I would clean up the rust, carefully fill with epoxy, carefully touchup the paint (blend some Testors to get it just right) and then cover it with a clamp. The key would be to fix just the immediate area of the hole without affecting anything else. This way you stabilize and hide the dent, and then defer the real fix to the future.

Bummer on the dent, though. I bought a bike recently that had a decent size dent under a clamp. I was rather perturbed. I was fairly successful in rolling out the dent; however now I need to paint, which I really did not plan to do.

Good Luck

-Gary

I can always ask Gary Cole his opinion. Even though he is retired, I still have his number. He might be willing to share his opinion on whether he believes it is doable or not.

-Kurt

Personally, I would be inclined to thoroughly clean the area around the dent, fill it with silver brazing filler like Fillet Pro or Fillet Builder, then fair it and paint the repaired area matching the color and patina as well as possible.

I wouldn't use plastic filler on it.

I say if it is really a "Grail" Masi bike = FIX IT!....partial of full resto, preferrably by a professional who knows what he is doing and is aware of the bike's importance. Only reason to keep that dent is if it had some sort of historical significance maybe related to a famous race incident with a famous pro riding it. Otherwise, it's just an ugly, rusty wart on a beautiful bike that needs to be taken out asap!

Chombi