rhm

No, you misunderstand me. When I got the old Brooks Pro frame there was no leather on it; what you see in my photos is the new top I made. The cut of the leather isn't that drastic; the rivets are bigger than usual, which throws the look off. I do the thinning of the leather before soaking it and forming it into a saddle shape. I don't like the look of the thick leather cut so close to the cantle, so I tapered its thickness down to almost nothing, leaving only a few mm of thin leather that curls under the edge of the cantle plate. The skirts are similar; rather than being beveled on the outside, like a Brooks Professional, the skirt is beveled on the inside, allowing it to curl under. Unfortunately this also makes it hard to get at the saddle clamp hardware; attaching it to the seat post I had to bend the skirt out, which resulted in the rumpled look of the leather. Oops.

Dawes-man

No longer That's great work, rhm!




I think the answer to attaching the saddle to the post might be to use an old-fashioned clip and post, which would actually suit the saddle, IMHO.

The only change I would make is to have a little more leather between the front rivet and the edge, but maybe what I'm seeing is the curl effect...


Are you taking commissions?

Clydesdale Scot

I have posted the first saddle before, one I recovered from a 1948 Dunlop saddle

It has 7mm thick leather (much thicker than a Brooks Pro) and has been 'tied' underneath with a chain link.




The next is an experiment on a 1959 Brooks, which had the nose piece torn from the rest of the saddle leather.
I arched and flattened the rear section of the cantleplate before recovering with 6mm thick leather




It is a work in progress and I used the photo on the Speedplay site and this one on Speedbicycles site for inspiration.


I may do another reshaped one taking more time and care, and possibly copper rivets (but not Brooks rivets as they are too short for the extra leather thickness). This one can then go on the indoor trainer.

Dawes-man

Thank you for posting that. I see you have used flat Allen bolts and locknuts instead of rivets, like Berthoud do. That had never occurred to me so thanks for the tip. Only once have I wanted to drill out rivets but didn't as I had no idea how to put in new ones.

And very nice saddles

Clydesdale Scot

I used countersunk stainless steel bolts, like the one on the right. These were then modified for the keeper saddle by a mate carefully machining the countersinking away, leaving a thin flat head (as in the left bolt). This was thought to place less stress on the leather over time.

rhm

*Thanks!

**But that is an old-fashioned clip and post! But it is not a very pretty clip (not chromed), so I inverted it so it is hidden inside the skirts of the saddle.

*** There are various issues at play here. I hammered the heads of the rivets out very wide, some more than others. In this case I think the rivet head is not very symmetrical, and the shaft of the rivet itself may be slightly oblique, bringing the head down lower than ideal. Peening the rivets on the side of the nose piece is one of the most difficult parts of the process. At any rate there is more leather there than you would think.

****I have done a few, but haven't got comfortable with it. Even if I charge an insanely high price, I end working at a comparatively low hourly rate and there are inevitably quality control issues of various kinds.



You just can't get good help these days .

lotek 

Given the look, quality etc. of the saddle you did for me I'd be inclined to
disagree with that assessment.
I'm at work and can't see any of the posted photo's but I'll post
photos of the saddle when I get home (and take some pics).

Marty

Dawes-man

I rather like that! Lovely colour...

I see about the clip. I'd imagined it would be easier to slide a spanner up the sides with a clip than to deal with a twin-bolt Campagnolo, which I'd assumed you'd used.

Did I say that was a lovely colour?

randyjawa 

Is the logo upo sido? Or is it just me...

echo

I don't see anything wrong with the logo...

Standalone 

Ah, yes, a Skoorb saddle. Very nice.

dbakl

Years ago I cut a few B17s I got for cheap. Pattern was copied from an Ideale I have. This was an original honey dyed black.

unworthy1

this is a very entertaining (and maybe inspirational) thread, thanks to all the contributors. I'm very impressed with the dedication some folks have to sweating the details: things like making your own (upside-down, no less) brand-stamp, to machining each Allen bolt individually to make it a broad flat head with virtually no countersink...that's some serious shop work, unless you happen to have a robot to do this.
Which got me to thinking about other fastener options (a favorite topic) and I've always had Elevator Bolts in the back or my head, waiting for a good application. (Really, I do have bolts in the back of my head, that explains a lot)
These are/were used to hold together the huge belts in grain elevators and have an enormous nearly flat head with no Allen hole or other slot. There are some (very limited selection) in stainless steel and the only size that might work would be the 1/4" x 3/4" and might require the shafts to be cut down shorter. I am guessing that SS heads that big and flat could also be peened.
https://www.boltdepot.com/Elevator_bo...-8_1_4-20.aspx

rhm

Okay, I'm going to let you wags laugh at my expense for a couple more days, then that photo is getting mysteriously deleted off my Flickr page. So a word to the wise, if you want to use it for extortion purposes in the future, better save it to your hard drive.

On my first saddle, instead of rivets I used 1/4" brass carriage bolts, and then filed the heads down so only a vestigal phillips head slot was visible. This was a lot more work than pounding rivets with a hammer, and the results were far less satisfying. Elevator bolts would seem to have some potential, definitely if the heads are thin enough that you can pound them to fit the curvature of the saddle. This would also prevent the heads from turning when you tighten the nuts. But don't let me discourage anyone from pounding rivets with a hammer; it's not nearly as difficult as you might imagine, and very satisfying. I particularly like the part where I swing the hammer and smash it down on a metal punch I'm holding in my left hand. I also like the fact that it gave me an excuse to buy an anvil. I always wanted one!

qd-s

Shown below is a Brooks Professional (early 60s) that was narrowed at least by 1 cm compared to my other Pro saddles of the same era.
Apparently the cantle plate was bent using heat as one can see from the tarnishing of the metal around the rail's joints (or were the rails (re-)welded to the cantle plate from the upper side, following it's curving?).



Cover was reattached using big hammered rivets, one extra rivet in the middle. Leather was trimmed slightly by cutting off the rearmost part of it, including "Brooks" badge, right back to the cantle's edge.

I do not know much about this craft but remember seeing butchered saddles on '60ish german racing bikes, big hammered rivets being stamped "Lüders BERLIN" (Lüders being a legendary german frame builder. Unfortunately website - not his! - with details no longer accessible).
Apparently Lüders carried out these modifications, too.

Dawes-man

Thanks qd-s. It's good to know that modifying was done in Germany, too. I guess it must have been done wherever Brooks saddles were sold.

Your rails might have been removed, shortened and re-welded. They mention that being done on classicrendezvous link that Clydesdale Scot posted earlier.

Do you have a side view of your saddle? It looks like the sides have been cut away and I'm interested to know what that looks like before I do the same to my Pro.

Chombi

"Skoorb"??....Must Dutch eyh........?....or Norwegian.....or Welsh???

Chombi

Road Fan

i think that branding is targeted toward the fixie market.

qd-s

I compared butchered saddle (see above, #40, and below) with my other Brooks Pros. The rails are absolutely identical to standard Pros' (same length, same rear distance & height). To enlighten mystery of tarnished steel I would probably have to detach leather cover from cantle plate...

Apart from big rivets in front as well, the butchered saddle seems to be standard. Chamfered side-edges untouched, still there.

pastorbobnlnh 

rhm recovered an Ideale Model 90 frame for me. It is worth posting pictures because the style of the leather was changed slightly.







I wanted it left natural and have finally found a bike to try it on, the '75 Schwinn Sports Tourer I recently bought.



I hope to complete the Sports Tourer project in the next two weeks so I can finally offer a test ride report on Rudy's handi work. In the mean time I'm enjoying some south Florida sunshine and visits with cudak888 and Michael Angelo!

qd-s

Short digression and some questions:

Did standard Brooks Professional saddles of the 60s generally come with small rivets? Or were they available from stock also with the bigger hammered rvets? When started production run of big rivet-Professionals?

I've got another quite heavily worn Pro with beautiful supple leather cover from 1962 (see below, cantle stamped "PAT No 662070" and "B 62") with big copper rivets. Rivets' faces smooth, probably filed and sanded.



According to VeloBase Brooks Pro was introduced in 1963.
"Brooks Professional" brand-stamping on both sides of this saddle is faint but clearly readable.

I have no idea if big rivets of my saddle are standard Brooks or if saddle was modified at some point (I think at least hammering marks were sanded down later in its life).

qd-s

Does nobody know?

Dawes-man

I started drafting a reply last week but got distracted. I have several Professionals and they all have large, smooth rivets. I think the hammered finish is a recent feature offered by Brooks. At least, I've never seen it on an old saddle. Others might know better.

rootboy 

I surely am no expert, but I don't think the large, hammered rivets showed up until the mid to late 70's or so. I didn't see any of them when riding in the early 70's, and it wasn't until later, I believe, that they started doing the large rivets with the introduction of the model they called the Brooks TEAM pro. I could be wrong.

rootboy 

But, wait a minute RHM. I haven't read this whole thread, guess I should, but, did you make those Brooks and Ideale stamps?
Impressive. Right side up or not. Also, what anvil did you buy and how are you supporting the back side of the rivet on an anvil? Maybe you did a thread answering all of these questions.. Anyway, I'm impressed. Nice work.