Johnonaschwinn

Hi Everyone, I am 5' 10" What is the standard size for a guy my height? I bought a 1973 schwinn paramount 21" and it kills my neck(LOVE THE BIKE) bought a 73 schwinn voyaguer and it feels a tad big in the drops, but I can ride it for hours with NO pain. The 23" feels less responsive.

Should I go with 22" frame size on a competition road bike ?

cycleheimer

For "off the rack" bikes, versus custom, take a look at each on an individual basis. Seems as though you've already narrowed down the range. That's my take on it.

Bianchigirll 

Even in the same size frame a Voyaguer will not feel as responsive as a Paramount because the Voyaguer is more of sport/recreational bike and the Paramount is a performance bike.

To me using the classic sizing method of straddling the bike and checking clearance of about 1-2" from the TT a 21 seems very small for someone 5'10". I think you need to try performance oriented bike in the 23"/59cm range.

flash2070

I would agree on a 54 to 58cm. 56cm would be ideal.

Flash

big chainring 

I followed the other thread you posted. A Paramount and a Voyaguer are very different bikes. The Paramount is a racing bike built to go fast. The Voyaguer is a touring bike, meant for loading with gear and riding stable. The "standard" production bike sizes for years were 21", 23", 25". So if you fell in between, which you do, you took your pick of riding a smallish 21", or a too large 23".

There are some exceptions and when you get to more custom bikes the measures are in centimeters. So what you might want to look for are bikes in the 56 or 57cm range.

That being all said, have you tried riding the Voyaguer with the Paramount wheels on it. A lot of what you may be feeling as "less responsive" could be as simple as the quicker feel of lighter wheels that the Paramount has. Try it and see what you think.

Johnonaschwinn

Thanks, i am riding 21" and get a neck ache. I tried a 100MM reach stem instead of the 85MM, but it was to low. I am bummed. I just want to ride, not mess with reinventing the wheel. I have heard everything from moving the seat back with a set back post, use a 110-130mm stem. I called Bill ron a bicycle guru in the south bay to get his fitting advise and see if he says sell this and move on. I hope he calls today

jimmuller 

Are you riding in the drops all the time? That's the only reason I can see for a neck ache when the bike is on the small side.

Johnonaschwinn

I am more confused than ever. I don't remember the sizing hassle as a kid it was fun then, it's expensive & literally painful now

Poguemahone

Height is not as much of a factor as inseam and reach when sizing a bike. They may seem to be related factors but they are not. And I would argue frame size is secondary to bike setup. Most of us have a range of sizes we can ride comfortably with a proper seatpost and stem extension. With improper post and stem, even the "right" size can be made uncomfortable. From what you're telling us, I suggest a taller stem on the smaller bike.

I recently adjusted a bike for a coworker. It was uncomfortable. The stem did not have much rise and had too much reach. I switched it out for one with less reach and more rise. Problem solved, it fits her much better.

roccobike

You've got one bike that you can ride for hours without pain. THAT is the KEY BIKE to measure. You want to measure from the pedal in the down position to the top of the saddle. Measure from the center of the seatpost to the center of the head. Then measure from the center of the seatpost to the hoods. Add any other key measurements you can think of. Now make the bike you're having problems with fit your measurements. There might be some slight adjustments, but you should see improvement.
I've done this with over a dozen bikes and I'm a hard to fit individual with short arms, average leg length and long torso combined with an injured neck. I've made classic 52 cm frames work up to 56 cm frames with all kinds of top tube lengths. Only once did I find a bike I just could not work with.

cpsqlrwn

I am sized similar to you and also have short legs. How short is your inseam, if I might ask? I have done a lot of experimenting and am ending up in the same situation as you. The best fitting bikes I have are a 54.5 square and a 56 X 55 which definitely has negative clearance. Also do you ever feel the larger bike (57 cm) is a little much in demanding circumstances (high wind or steep grades), maybe not aero enough in those instances?

CardiacKid

The problem with a bike that is too small is the drop between the saddle and the bars. If there is too much drop, your neck will get sore because you are keeping your head at an uncomfortable angle to see. This is something that is unique to each individual. As we get older we require less drop. It might have been comfortable when you were fifteen but it isn't now. You need to raise the quill stem. If you reach the max line and still have neck pain, buy a taller stem. Extending the reach is just going to exacerbate the neck pain. It is going to put your head lower.

n8b

I tend to agree with Poguemahone and wrk101. Looking at bike fit based on the length of their seat tube is at best a very rough guesstimate. When you are on your bike you make contact in three spots: The seat, the handlebars, and the pedals. Moving any one of these contact points in relation to the others changes the fit of the bike.

Your pedals are essentially fixed, although you can change crank arm length, but that shouldn't be an issue for you. You can move the seat or handlebars relative to one another. Typically you move your seat in relation to your pedals first, and than move your handlebar in relation to your seat. If your pedal stroke feels comfortable than concentrate on moving your handlebars.

Frame size actually has an impact on the stiffness of the bike. Most frames use the same tube diameters and thicknesses for every size. The shorter the tubes get the stiffer the frame will get. You could think of frame size as a way of controlling stiffness to a point.

Johnonaschwinn

If I raise the neck it looks out of place(too tall)
This is where I am guessing the frame is too small. I am going to list the paramount on fleabay with worldwide shipping. I am sure it will sell, however I doubt I will ever see one this clean in my size. I don't even really know what size I should be riding any how. I should have started with a regular ten speed and not a top of the line race bike. I am partial to the race bike. I do not like the touring bike. I am going to move that out too and start all over. I do appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in. John

jyl

Here is what I would do.

You are, it sounds like, happy with the Voyageur's fit in every respect, other than the drops are too low or too far forward (I'm not quite sure what you meant). So, measure the key fit dimensions of that bike that you like: the distance from bottom bracket to top of seat, the distance from middle of seat to the tops/flats of the handlebars (where the stem clamps), the drop from seat to the flat of the handlebars, the crank length.

Now change the bars so that you are fuly happy. Maybe you need a bar that is shallower (vertical distance from flats to drops) or shorter (how far forward the hooks are from the flats). New bars tend to be shallower and shorter than the old classic road racing bars. Bars are not too expensive and you can move your favorite bar from bike to bike.

When you are happy with the bar, re-measure the Voyageur. Those measurements are now your target fit when it comes to shopping for a new bike, either a larger Paramount or something else. The new bike's frame size might be 21" or 23" or 58cm or 56cm, as long as the seat and stem can be adjusted, and the bar adjusted or replaced, to match your target fit, you should be comfortable. Your feet, butt, and hands will be in the same location as they were on the Voyageur.

Of course, you need to be able to stand over the frame without getting squashed. You might measure your bike inseam in socks, your standover height in the shoes you ride in, or simply measure the standover of the Voyageur - anyway, figure out roughly how big a frame you can stand over. This is just to narrow down what bikes you should go see; you're presumably going to wear your bike shoes and throw a leg over a bike before buying it, so you'll check this anyway.

Then go shopping for a new bike. Probably a racer not a tourer, since you seem to prefer the former. That means you'll want a bike that is light, shorter wheelbase, steeper frame angles, etc.

Or, maybe these measurements, and comparing the two bikes, will show you a way to get the Paramount to work - a higher stem? longer stem? Maybe you can post a photo of the two bikes side by side, so they look superimposed.

Why is fitting harder now? We're not kids anymore, we are less flexible and more suspectible to aches and pains. Also, we rode some ill-fitting bikes back when. Remember how your parents used to get you bikes and clothes that were way too big, so that you could "grow into it"? I learned to ride on a bike that I couldn't even straddle, not even close, every time I stopped I had to dismount. We thought that was normal.

jyl

Oh, just saw the pics you posted. I'd be interested if you would measure the two bikes and report back. Is the only difference that the Paramount has a larger vertical drop from seat to bar and a shorter horizontal reach from seat to bar, and the Voyageur has a deeper bar? (Sorry if I am eyeballing this wrong.)

There are quill stems with a positive rise (the stem rises from steerer tube to bar clamp). Or you can use a threadless adapter which opens up the world of threadless stems (lots of sizes and rises, with open faces so it is easy to swap bars and stems). You're not required to use drop bars - you could try bullhorn bars with the existing stem, that would raise your hand position (at the cost of looking hipster, I guess).

n8b

Looking at the pictures I highly recommend trying this. The drop from seat to bars on the voyageur looks smaller, and the reach looks longer. Someone mentioned not trying a longer stem, but I think you might want to. That stem is very short, and could be leading to you humping your back up a lot which would force you to bend your neck more. If you want a bike to fit just right it takes time to dial it in. Don't give up just yet. Use this bike to experiment and get a better idea of what size bike you actually need before you go buy another frame.

newenglandbike

That Voyageur looks to be the perfect size for you, based on the seat height (for a classic horizontal TT frame). If you don't like the relaxed ride of it and want something more sporty, I'd search for a paramount in that size, or another sport/race bike such as a Raleigh Competition, early 80's Trek 620, etc.

Ecrevisse

You don't size bikes by your height. Choosing a Frame Size

repechage

In a side view image of your 21" Paramount elsewhere the stem is close to the saddle height. Assuming your saddle is the correct height. The stem height and length indicate to me you are not looking for a competition fit.
Getting a bike comfortable is often a job for more than one. You cannot review your fit while on the bike, someone can take an image or video. Side view will be the most telling.
For the 21" frame I would try a longer stem actually given you are 5' 10", and I would want to know how you arrived at your saddle height. Maybe a Nitto high rise stem too... for that Rivendell fit... And 42 cm wide bars, but that was mentioned earlier in another thread.

Also, in review between the two bike images... why is the saddle on one at such a different tilt than the other?

ColonelJLloyd 

+1

That said, no one who is an honest 5'10" has any business riding a 21" traditional road frame. I'm 5'11" with long legs. My best fitting bikes are 62cm c-t-c ST and 58cm c-t-c TT.

Italuminium

All over the map. At 5,11, my rides are 54, 55, 58, 58. Critical is the reach, in my case. I'm quite long legged I guess (60 cm bikes are clearable by my bibs), but due to the curvature of my back and relatively small hands, feet (and thus, under arm - funny that these are the same size!) I need a short TT. So my classic ALAN (54) has miles of seat post, yet bars dropped to the lowest, for a fast and comfy racing position. My concorde fixie (58) has a perfect fistful of seatpost, but I'm stretched out to much.

Roypercy

In my limited experience, a lot depends on the bike. I'm 5'11" and for years rode a 21" Raleigh Super Course with the seatpost and stem as high as they'd go; it was never terribly uncomfortable, just never felt "right". I currently have a 23" Grand Jubile that came to me equipped with a short-reach (60mm) stem and 38 cm wide bars and was giving me neckaches. Switched to a 100mm reach stem and 40cm wide bars and I'm riding very comfortably now. I've also been quite comfortable, in the past, on 60 cm bikes, and as a previous poster said, on bikes with more upright geometry that were "on paper" 23" frames but very different feel.

From your pics, given where you've set the seat on the Voyageur it looks to me like 23" is certainly the right size for you; try a bike with different geometry, or a more responsive frame.

That Voyageur is damn pretty, by the way...

kroozer 

I think the Paramount is too small for you. Sell it and get another. They're expensive but not rare, even very nice ones.

mazdaspeed

For a performance fit on a road bike, 56cm will be a good medium