So I'm building up some clincher wheels using zeus high flange hubs that are, as far as I can tell, identical to campy high flange hubs. Using both data for the campy hubs, and data I measured myself from the zeus hubs (which matches the campy data), and the published rim ERD (606mm, VO pbp's), I came up with a spoke length of 288mm. This is for 36h, 3 cross. The first and second set of spokes went fine, but the third (crossing) spokes seem to be too short. Even if I can get one to engage a nipple, it is passing over the adjacent spoke head in the hub, instead of clearing the hub flange. The only thing I can think of, assuming all the measurements are accurate, is I'm not twisting the hub counterclockwise far enough before attempting to mount the crossing spokes. The spokes are fairly snug in the hub holes, in fact I had to screw them in at first to get them to fit. Any thoughts / anything else to check for?

Sounds like they're too short. For close to 40 years I've used 293s for high-flange 3x to 700 clinchers or sewups on typical 5-6 speed wheels.

An error in lacing can cause this. Let's see a picture.

pic will have to wait until tonight. I was using Zinn's book (as before). Also, this site to get the spoke length:https://lenni.info/edd/

pics

Yeah, I think they're too short.

Plus, I don't know how you'll get the twist in the hub and the cross right if you're doing half of each side at the same time. I complete one side of the hub, then do the other. 'Cause otherwise it's too complicated for my brain to comprehend.

But I've built a lot of Camp high-flange to those rims 3x at 293...

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I like this online calculator https://lenni.info/edd/. It says 288.6. I'm pretty new at this wheel building thing so probably these other guys are right but how far have you threaded the nipples on? Could it be that they're too close to tension for you to get the others started? Seems to me that even if your spokes are 5mm too short you should still be able to start them if you've left enough slack in the others.

-Andy

Those never existed in the early 70s: I never got a right answer with one. We usually measured the spokes on a built wheel and went from there. For common patterns on the typical oldstyle box section rims with Campagnolo compatible hubs, the spoke lengths are pretty well established... but what do I know: I got 4 pair to lace right now, and 2 more pair to true!

It must an issue with the ERD value that Velo Orange supplied - I finally remembered that my '78 Raleigh Pro has similar rims/hubs (campy hi-flange)...I measured the spoke length @ 191mm (plus I found some unused 191mm spokes). So I guess I need to get a box of 191/192s.

No way, 5mm is way too short for that.

Op, have you tried actually measuring the rim since finding out the spokes are too short? What about the spokes themselves?

The rear spokes should be 18@288mm and 18@287mm. The front spokes should be 36@288mm. The 606 ERD is a good number.

Read and follow the instructions on pages 83-94 of The Bicycle Wheel and Bob's your uncle. Measure your spokes to confirm you have the correct length(s). In the photos it looks like you have not twisted the hub enough.

Yes I just checked w/ spokecalc and got the same 288 number. Zinn's book has worked fine for me before, it's easy to follow and understand. My spokes are all 288. It must be not enough hub twisting due to the tight fit of all the spokes. I will try it w/ one side only, that should let me twist it more. Then the other side should work out.

Well that was it! Once I removed one side of spokes, the hub twisted enough to easily mount the crossing spokes. Now if I can figure out an easy way to drop the nipples down into the single eyelets...

Screw the top of the nipple into a spoke and insert.