you saw the 51 Cinelli here? Had some.

What made a Schwinn approved derailleurs good? Or what should be looked for?

Most Schwinn approved DR's where actually Huret Allvit type DR's made in France. Schwinn went to some length to have them made with special labeling and the made in France on the back as small as they could get away. Basically with the Schwinn approved stuff they where basically trying to hide that these where cheaper foriegn made parts made under contract by various manufacturers, a lot of people have been duped in to thinking this stuff was better quality made in the US. In my opinion they where not very good and in many cases pretty awfull.

While highly collectable, functionally they are suspect. The ridges do little to keep your bars from twisting. You will see many cracked clamp areas because of over-tightening to stop bars from twisting.

I agree about them being collectable and functionally crappy.

Bike Frame Materials:

Frames have been build from a number of materials, including bamboo, injection molded reinforced plastic, cast magnesium, fiberglass, carbon fiber, aluminum, scandium, titanium and (last but not least) steel.

Of these materials, steel has been predominant. There are many reasons for its popularity for bicycles over the years. Steel is easy to work with, easy to fabricate with, easy to repair, easy to alloy, has high strength in tensile/shear/bending/compression modes and is incredibly resilient. Its springlike properties aid the rider in utilizing energy to the fullest, while maintaining a degree of comfort in the saddle during long rides. The ductility of steel means it can be butted with ease to remove weight and make for a more lively riding experience. The resistance to crush and impact forces means that steel can be ridden safely, even if dented or bent. By far, the biggest drawback has been weight. A periodic table tells the story - Iron has higher molecular weight than any of the other materials cited above. The weight problem has been dealt with through improved alloying, hardening and heat-treatments, but quality steel has (to a large extent) been relegated to the custom builder, with large manufacturers leaving it in the dust for more sexy (and often, less rugged / less fault-tolerant) materials.

Aluminum is much lighter than steel is, but it is also much weaker. This means that more bulk of metal is required for the same overall tensile strength properties. The additional bulk entails additional tube thickness or rigidity, particularly if over-sized tubes are used (ex. Cannondale; Trek). This provides aluminum with instant response to inputs from the rider, but the trade off is a wretched ride. Some degree of compromise was obtained through use of advanced heat bonding techniques (used with thinner and more sensitive aluminum alloys with better ride properties - think Bridgestone Radac or the Vitus 979), but the drawbacks remain. The technology, having matured, has fewer problems than it used to have, but it still suffers from notch sensitivity and fatigue failures (anyone who has ever seen a Cannondale with a beer-can failure will attest to same). 6061 with T6 hardening has the biggest success rate for bikes, having had a long history in BMX and mountain bikes (and motocross before that).

Titanium still has an aura of wonder about it, due to its long history in aviation. It falls somewhere between steel and aluminum in terms of strength and weight, but overall strength of its alloys have been quite good. Building it and machining it have always been a challenge, as it tends to require special atmospheres when welded. Titanium can be quite useful when the builder aims to reduce weight while maintaining strength. However, it is still relatively expensive material with high skill requirements for the builder. Notch sensitivity means titanium (like aluminum) can give way with little warning to the rider when it fails.

Carbon fiber promised to be all things to all people - the rigidity of aluminum with the strength of steel and the compliant ride of rubber. It does offer these things if the end user is gentle and does not subject the carbon to crush loads or impacts. When those occur, all bets are off - because when carbon lets go on its rider, it bites suddenly, and hard. Someday it will stop being sexy - either that or manufacturers will come up with new ways to fix it after damage occurs, along with making it more rugged.

You know, as long as we're going there, who has photos of quality bags/panniers/tool rolls? I'm going to assume some newbies are going to be touring types, too.

I think maybe we should consider that when posting pics, we make a distinction regarding intended use and collectibility. Iab made a great point about the superiority in use of a parallelogram vice a coil spring derailleur, and then martl made an equally great point that the coil spring derailleur is still way up there in terms of collectibility. I'd also say ditto regarding the Cinelli Demi-fond stem - apparently not so great in application but sought after by collectors due to its rarity.

Thoughts?

DD

If you find a bike in CL, garage sale or thrift store, look for a tubing decal. The bikes with frames made from butted Chromoly steel were usually equipped with decent components, and thus are worthy of restoration. Here are some examples.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...epairFinal.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...IMEGRgZaKu5Qtx
http://therandonneurproject.files.wo...1/03/r531.jpeg
http://www.velocals.com/media/01/a20...a3b7ad97_m.JPG
http://www.velocals.com/media/01/a20...87307407_m.jpg
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpe...ecalTubing.jpg
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpe...calTubing2.jpg

a poster above mentions falcon and sun race as lessor components.

while falcon labeled parts may suck, vintage falcon road bikes designed by ernie clements do not. also, i've been putting new 6-speed sunrace freewheels on most all my new builds and have been extremely happy with them.

Here's a high-quality saddle bag (made by Rootboy Originals):

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8180/8...d376b7e2_b.jpg

For those of you who don't know, Rootboy is a C&V member who is crazy-talented at metal and leather working. He's got his own burgeoning cottage industry going on in his basement workshop :)

DD

Um, you all knew this was coming, right?

Good drillium (if I may say so myself):

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5348/7...d30d251f_b.jpg

Bad drillium (going by the consensus of those contributing to this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...stop-this-guy! ):

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/CAMPAGNOLO-SU...VfQ~~60_57.JPG

DD

Or a stuck stem.

While I am at it, I will share a painful, expensive story.

I traded to much 'crap' to get a frame that I really, really wanted. It was a small road frame for my son. When I got it home I found the stem was stuck but it had to come out because the headset had lost all it's bearings. I spent $150 at a shop getting that stem out.

The wheels were steel rims and rusted beyond reason. Also the front axle was so bent that it nearly damaged the hub removing it. I ended up buying new wheels. It had 24"x1" stamped on the rims and 24"x1.5" stamped on the tires, which ironically were in like new condition. When I got the new wheels I discovered that there is more than one size of 24" wheels, I had the wrong size for this frame. Eventually I realized that it is unlikely that I will find the proper size wheels for this bike.

So after putting three times what the bike is worth into the bike, I have a bike that will likely never be ridden again. My solution is to feed my son more in hopes he grows taller soon.

What about Croce d'Aune delta brakes? DA stems didn't work better than a contemporary simple TTT, yet i'd prefer the first on a bike with that group. Any mid-level Suntour would work better than a 50th anniversario... and a Beetle runs more reliable than a Silver Ghost or an Atalante Coupe.

Usually, a period correct clean built bike would be more collectible than a wild assembly of parts - unless you happen to know it was the bike of a good racer and he built it that way because he liked it that way. The collecting world is many things, black and white it ain't.

Cool - your opinion counts, but so do pics (and accompanying blurbage), so c'mon - let's see them!

Recall that the point of this thread was to show pics/explain relative merits and/or demerits where applicable. There are just not enough hours in the day for me to try to post everything myself :)

DD

BM: I have to count myself lucky that I've never experienced the grief of a stuck stem or seatpost - and I hope I never do. At my advanced age I'd be risking a heart attack or stroke if I had to go through that process (yeah, I've read an account or two by those unfortunates who've braved either or both)!

...and thanks for the PM - that was way cool :thumb:

DD

You know, I just have to say it: no matter what my butt may say, those two saddles are absolutely beautiful :)

DD

:D :thumb: How about a side view?

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...oksB5NLogo.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...htsW3NLogo.jpg

I have to say, the "N" series from this era, fits mine better than any other traditional leather saddle.

You sure can - in fact, it's encouraged!

DD

Pastor, I'm amazed at how strikingly similar those two saddles are, considering they came from two different manufacturers. Did Brooks and Wrights share info with one another or something like that?

I think one of these days I'm going to bite the bullet and give a suspended leather saddle a chance. Probably going to look for an Ideale, in one of their narrow versions.


DD

So for Newbs, here is an example of a bike that might be passed up. If you know enough and can appear somewhat knowledgable and passionate, you can get a deal. This was advertised for $300 and purchased at half the price. Details can be found here with a discussion about a number of items and includes a list of the parts on the bike. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ight=Pinarello
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7405/1...0df5a57c_b.jpg

DD,

By the point that those NOS saddles were made, IIRC, both Brooks and Wrights were owned by the same company as Sturmey Archer. This was in the late '70s into the '80s. By this point it appeared that Brooks were the top end saddles and Wrights were sort of a mid-grade of the same product. Sort of like comparing a 1990's Chevy Impala to a Buick Roadmaster, same chassis, but better interior/exterior trim and finish.

Speaking of "chassis" here's the underside for the full comparison (am I overdoing this?):

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...rthickness.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Undersides.jpg

As you can see, the Brooks B5N on the left has thicker leather than the Wrights W3N on the right. The underside of the Brooks also has a better finish. When you look closely at the frame the rails look the same, but the hardware bits look to be better quality on the Brooks. The Wrights were priced less than the Brooks. In fact, on the Sears/Puch 10 speed I bought in 1974, I'm guessing that when I upgraded the saddle I bought a Wrights (after saving all Summer).

I wish I had a picture of the underside of this inexpensive Middlemore. It can somewhat be seen, but the rails and hardware on this model are really "cheap" compared to the Brooks and Wrights.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...lemoreside.jpg

DD, if you'd like to borrow a saddle to try, I'b be glad to loan you one for a few months. If you've never tried one, I'd like to suggest not trying an Ideale first. In fact, the Wrights W3N is a perfect one to start with because of it's thinner leather.

Keep an eye on eBay for that...I lost a couple auctions this last week for a pair of Ideale saddles that were absolutely pristine. One was used, but in excellent condition, and the other was removed new from a bike, and stored. The bidding got kind of crazy, though.

Echoing Zukahn1, my list of "Lesser Components" was another way of saying "not good". The only decent "Schwinn-Approved" derailleurs were the later Shimano-built ones (GT-300, GT-400) that were in reality only mid-range Shimano components.

Here's a great article with lots of detail on the models, manufacturers, and history of Schwinn-approved derailleurs:
http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...rs_page_2.html

I also have found Sun Race's modern replacement components to be good quality at an affordable price. However, a bike that is built using OEM Sun Race (or Sun Run) parts is almost always junk. It's less of a comment on Sun Race parts' mechanical quality and more about the overall price and value of the bike.

Perfect example of finding a sleeper - all newbies would do well to check out the associated thread!

DD

Pastor: The photos of the undersides are not overkill - in fact, as soon as I saw those pics I immediately noticed the differences in the saddles that couldn't be readily detected from the first couple pics. Thicker and nicer finished leather - very obvious, and I just learned something!

I appreciate the offer and I'll take you up on that once I get back stateside and am somewhat settled down. Btw, what model is tha smooth-topped one in the background in the Middlemore photo? I like that shape a lot.

DD