crank_addict

I don't recall ever having a non-cottered steel crank but for whatever reason, I find them appealing. What other vintage 'performance geared' would one recommend?

juvela

there is NERVAR Sport.

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/MpkAAOxydUJTNKPx/$_35.JPG

https://velobase.com/CompImages/Crank...CBC20507E.jpeg

Raleigh Copper Project on velospace, the place for bikes

the set was also offered in a cottered version.

juvela

then there is Gnutti splined:

VeloBase.com - Component: Gnutti 3-pin (splined)

https://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com...=1296645063130

juvela

then there is Magistroni Super Zenith:

Magistroni Super Zenith crank set.

Magistroni

crank_addict

I forgot about the Gnutti and spline. Curious how well they kept them tight vs. a square w/taper.

juvela- Appreciate the links. Just in the research mode as an upgrade for my clunker. Not concerned that much of weight but a slender arm, delicate looking spider and over 170mm.

juvela

Then there is Stronglight 49A:


VeloBase.com - Component: Stronglight 49A

juvela

alas, all but the NERVAR Sport would be quite dear if findable. the NERVAR came stock on the Raleigh Super Course MK II in the mid-'70s and on one model of Motobecane around the same time. there was a model of Bianchi which fitted it ~1973. it employs the same chainwheels as the NERVAR Star five-arm model.

randomgear

You can also find steel non-cottered cranks on some cheap kids bikes; a neighborhood kid had one.

sailorbenjamin

I had one on a MTB parts bike. No way it was going to come off that spindle.

rhm

CCM used to make a cotterless crank with a triangular spindle.

juvela

thanks rhm for the ccm,

i had forgotten about that one. had the opportunity to see one apart at a friend's workshop many years ago.

dddd

Odd that the crankset pictured isn't steel and isn't 86bcd like the text reads.

And speaking of Stronglight cranks, I went to a swap today and found a 40t ring for my SC57 crankset for $10.

juvela

congratulations quadruple d; i LOVE 57's

what dost thee have them fitted to?

dddd

I've got a very early '60's PX10, in need of extensive restoration, that has Stronglight SC57 cranks on it. One of the green ones with orange-painted lugs, but the paint is really beat from exposure.

I got another pair of SC57 cranks (BSA-threaded) from a basket-case Italian bike that must have been taken apart not long after it was new. The rear "no Record" hubshell was bent, but the rest of the parts that were put in this huge box were in excellent shape, including a Brooks Pro, a Gran Sport mech with cable adjuster barrel, and a 2nd-gen Record front mech. Also it had Mafac brakes, but the frameset had been left to rust and I was never able to identify it before I gave it away to a guy who had it powder-coated blue. The cranks were mounted on a Magistroni bb.

I've also had a couple of 1st-year Record cranksets come my way, one in exchange for work and the other attached to a 1959 Paramount. I sometimes wonder what these things are worth.

repechage

True first generation Campagnolo Record cranks are very dear and go for serious money. They are best identified by the machining of the spider to crank arm interface, the region that later became a stress riser and shows small cracks from time to time was cut away. That and examples that retained the pedal shields over time, often removed to fit pedals with the longer threaded region.

juvela

hello dddd -

thanks very much for your complete answer. how were you able to determine that your px is a ten? i would have thought that an early sixties example would be an eight or a nine. is there a peugeot timeline posted somewhere? (not questioning your statement) have seen one or two examples with that green/orange livery. wonder if it predates or is contemporaneous with the royal blue/yellow one...

the italian bike must have been a one down from the top model. a number of italian mfrs put a record chainset on the top model and a verot on the next one down during the sixties.

yes, those early record chainsets must be worth a small fortune, especially on honshu. have had one or two come through over the years. recall the dustcap at the inner end of the pedal hole and the lack of webbing between the two lower spider arms and the crank arm itself.

thanks as always for your explanations

dweenk

BCA from PA or NJ, used to sell bikes with cotterless steel cranks. I do not have a clue who made them.

dddd

I assumed the Peugeot was a PX10 simply because of the front/rear chroming, and the usual other components, but the rear derailer on this one is the Export61 Luxe, with chromed finish and thumbwheel limit adjusters.

Both of my early Record cranksets have the chromed pedal hole caps and machined (to remove webbing) right arm. I notice that Stronglight cranks are all machined this way.

BTW, at the Swap meet on Saturday, I picked up a different pair of Simplex derailers from this approximate period.
All-steel, with beveled alloy washer surrounding the flat-head screw at each spring pivot. My previous Export61 rear derailer finds had plastic covers over each pivot, but here these are fine-looking screw and alloy washer. This one isn't chromed however, but has the offset plastic pullies w/o ball bearings. A matching alloy pushrod front mech was included, for $50.

We had a great day here, with local shop offering 20 and 40-mile morning rides, then free tacos and good beer, followed by the Tour of California riders coming past the shop across a mid-stage sprint line!
Will be taking the day off tomorrow to ride down to the Stage 2, Individual Time Trial, where one of our club members has devised a route to allow us to view the race from several vantage points.

juvela

hello dddd,

thank you for all this information.

wrt to px_

checked at cr and the earliest one they show is identified as 1962 and a ten; so it sounds like you are spot on. they also have a gallery of a 1966 which shows the white delrin shift levers you fitted to your clubman.

wrt amgen -

they get into my area on sunday. will be fun.

wrt juy gears -

thank you for the photo. do you envision a project you will be using these on? or are they something to put in a "hope chest?"

free beer and food at a bicycle swap meet! I have been to a number of them and have never encountered such a thing. folk in the sacto valley know how to do things right.

dddd

It's sometimes hard to find a catalog for the exact year of bike, even a popular bike like a PX10.

I was thinking of using these all-metal Simplex mech's on my Clubman, to replace the ageing, cracking plastic derailers.
First I will have to install a later, non-offset cage, so I can re-fit my ball-bearing pulleys.
Or I may just use a better pair of plastic Simplex mech's.

The bike ride, free tacos and beer was all at Victory Velo, here in Auburn, ...they came through, then the T of C came through!
The bike swap was actually down in Sac'to, the day before, courtesy of The Edible Pedal.
And I bought the Simplex derailers from the proprietor of The Edible Pedal.

Have fun with the T of C passing through! I missed today's time trial because my contractor friend suddenly became available to put up the scaffolding I need to repair my back deck.

crank_addict

For the bottom line of cranks, I find these Shimano steel/aluminum interesting. Amazing when one thinks about it. The steel stampings and ramps, the perfect cut notches and then how they fasten it all together. Considered low end of course but the assembly weight isn't too far from full alloy triples.


This was on a 1993 Schwinn ATB I recently picked up from Goodwill ($6.99 - for the entire bike).

dddd

That is pretty sophisticated mass-production design, but I've had similar Shimano chainrings that produced a rumbling against the chain that you could feel through your feet.
They sure shift well though and not all that heavy I have to agree.

verktyg 

The crank arms are "Melt Forged" which is a Jinglish euphemism for pressure cast!

Molten aluminum is injected under high pressure into a precision steel mold. The arms on these kinds of low end cranks are at least 20% larger than true forged aluminum cranks to compensate for the difference in strength between cast and forged parts.

The chainring spider is swagged onto the crank arm with a substantial amount of material on those Shimano triples.

That was a short coming with the early Japanese cast aluminum cranks like the first generation Sugino Maxi and SR "Melt Forged" models.

They were fashioned after swagged steel cranks and the makers didn't allow for enough metal to form a strong joint with aluminum. The wasn't much of a sporting bike tradition in Japan and those components were made for the western market.

1st generation Sugino Maxi cranks



Later style Sugino Maxi with more substantial swagging



SR "MELT FORGED"


The average Japanese person weighs considerably less than the average westerner. The first time a 200 Lb. masher got on a bike with those type of cranks, they frequently spun the spider in the swagging.

Around 1973 Gitane started using Sugino Maxi cranks on their Interclub amateur racing model. We had a bunch of them awaiting warranty replacement cranks from Sugino. It took 6 month to a year to get the re-engineered Sugino Maxi replacements.

Same thing happened with Japanese bikes that came with the early SR cranks.

That's why I've always considered cast aluminum cranks with swagged CR spiders low quality...

TA cottered steel crank


verktyg

Chas.

dddd

The zombie thread awakens!

Thanks verktyg for the info on those early 1970's Maxy cranks with the big ring made from flat stock and swaged on.

So lucky I'm light, because I've ridden a couple of pair of these cranks hard, really hard, and have yet to spin one. Only a couple of thousand miles each though.

The ~1973 arms do say "forged" (see below) on mine, and so slender as to be scary!

Somewhat surprises me that many people raced on them, but certainly in some locales a lot of lower-level parts are used for racing.

verktyg 

David,

Yours are the improved Maxy version 1.5 cranks... They have the red rings around the bolts and the day-glo red inserts in the bolt heads. Also compare the large chainrings.



Gitane was having a problem getting Stronglight 93 cranks in the early 70s. That's why they switched to Sugino Mighty Compe cranks on their Tour de France bikes around 1973.

Peugeot used Stronglight 93 and 49 cranks on a lot more models so they had more juice with Stronglight than Gitane, Motobecane and Raleigh (Moto and Raleigh switched to SR cranks on many models).

The Interclub was Gitane's amateur racing model. It was marketed to competed against Peugeot AR-10 (steel cranks) and PR-10 (Stronglight 49 alloy cranks).

In 1973 Gitane "improved" the Interclub cranks, switching from cottered steel to Sugino Maxi alloy cotterless cranks. Those first Maxy cranks were the problematic ones. I spun out one arm on a new Interclub that I was test riding after assembling it!

I have a lot of experience working forged and die cast aluminum parts. There are some distinct differences in the appearances...

For example pressure die cast (melt forged) parts are near net size when they come out of the molds. There's minimal machining required - tapping the pedal threads and extractor threads plus broaching the spindle squares. Some of the cheap, early die cast cranks weren't even broached!

Also they are frequently "tumble polished" to remove casting flash and give a polished appearance.

Takagi was another Japanese producer of low cost cranks. The back side of these die cast cranks show no sign of machining but there are marks from tumbling.



Forged crank arms require a lot more machining (which leaves tool marks even on Campy cranks).




"...on mine... so slender as to be scary!"

See what I said about Japanese people, bikes and components in the early 70s.

As I mentioned, there wasn't much sport cycling in Japan. Most of the millions of bikes in use were 50 lb. black and rust, single or three speed rod brake models.

The man in Japan - 1964...



This was a club ride in 1964. Half on the riders were Americans. Notice the difference in physical size between the Japanese and American riders (30 to 50 Lbs. heavier). Most of the bikes had European components.



The Japanese bike component industry didn't start producing performance parts until the early 1970s and it took them an number of years to begin gaining market share in the West.

Most of what the made was for export and to the specs of importers, many of whom didn't have a clue... Thus the problems with early cast aluminum cranks.

If you compare the crank arms on the later Maxy models they're more robust. They most likely used stronger aluminum alloys too.

Columbo moment... Both SR Sakae Ringo and Takagi made cottered cast aluminum cranks. They had humongous heads where the cotters went through. Another example of no sporting tradition in Japan. One of the big reasons for cotterless cranks was to eliminate the problems with cotters coming loose!

verktyg

Chas.