embankmentlb

It's not a rich or poor thing. It's more about surviving as a business. Most bike shops sell new bikes and new bike parts. If you take them your tacoed wheel from your 77 Cinelli don't expect them to replace it with a period correct rim. Not their fault, they are not a bad business.

eschlwc

i don't want to argue, but what you describe in post 51 ("the gist of the sentiment predominant in this thread") doesn't exist as a predominant theme, not even in the op, which merely explains unprofessional workmanship on two bikes of unknown vintage.

nesteel 

Went into one of the local bike shops last year to get a rear axle set for a bike I was converting to quick change. "Salesman" just looked at me like I was from mars, then ran off to find the "mechanic". Mechanic proceeded to tell me that changing a wheel over to quick change would be SO EXPENSIVE, that I would be much better just springing for a new set of wheels. WTF? Do I looks stupid pal?

3alarmer

...read the thread title again. It's a solicitation for attacks on any and all professional bicycle
repair facilities that do not well attend the needs of a very small segment (and by any definition
a very insignificant one economically) of the bicycle cycle riding public.

As such I think it is both a questionable idea, and of somewhat dubious value.
It smacks of a sense of entitlement that is not warranted in any sound business model of which I am aware.

Certainly it is not unreasonable to demand excellent service on a product you have bought from someone
for a specific length of service, for which most products are designed. C + V bicycles, by their very nature,
are probably largely outside the scope of that model. As are bicycles bought at Walmart, bicycles bought
from internet dealers like Bikes Direct, etc. It is not unreasonable for a business to target a certain group
as their core customer base, and to focus their repair and service efforts in that direction.

I write this as the Saturday manager of our own bike co-op here, with my own treasured collection of bad yelp reviews.

likebike23

Perhaps some shops don't want to deal with C&V bikes because most of the ones they run across are basket cases. Most C&V bikes that I run across are by my standards in horrible condition. I have yet to find a C&V bike that has had all of the bearings repacked in the last 5 years. Most times none have ever been done. The vast majority need new cables, housing, tires, chains, and bar wrap. Some need freewheels, saddles, bottom brackets/spindles, have at least 1 taco'ed wheel, have at least one seized/stripped component, etc. I never actually got a quote to do a full rehab on a bike, I do it myself, but it's got to cost at least $250. Would a shop be as thorough with cleaning/polishing the frame and components at that price? No way, if they were the cost would probably be double. I've seen some of the used bikes for sale in the local college town shops and I'm really not impressed with them either. They are serviced, but not thoroughly. Again, it would be cost prohibitive for them to do a good job. Lesson: if you appreciate C&V bikes, learn to wrench.

crank_addict

Indeed the intention is to raise awareness. Not trying to make it some yelp review but your position has reasonable excuses. I wouldn't expect top tier assistance from a co-op. But its another story from a 'professional' representing sales and servicing dealer / dealership.

From the OP, those examples are close to mindless - stupid - unacceptable. Sending a bike out with near to no brakes, a computer mounted like crap plus upside down and the other bike with a brandish - overwhelming large shop sticker on top of the rare graphics after they built a screwed up rear wheel. For others to share their experiences, thats a sign its not some random problem.

Assuming you were unable to for whatever reason service your finest bike, would you mind paying for the above or accept it? After experiencing such type of business, would you drop your money and buy a new bike from them? These are probes that as forum members certainly should discuss. Not all of us are hung up on C&V but might have a stronger passion for the hobby or sport.

If anything, the post here might be read by others newly into C&V (whom might have a tidy sum invested or rarity) but also for 'pro' dealers who may come upon it and reflect how they do business. And if they poo-poo, well maybe in time they'll change when sales drop.

I want to add, great to hear someone like you cares enough and obvious your reply shows pride. Also, there are few excellent shops I gladly spend extra with. They care from the moment one walks in - greeting, sales, to the back and service. I've observed it from being in the background. The one shop is relatively new... I believe only into his third year. Took over an old established shop name and territory AND relocated. One would think it's risky relocating but that shop is looking busy both in the back and bikes out the door ( carries multi-line top recognized names). Full gambit from tykes bikes to high zoot plus team. A few vintage bikes are in the shop plus and a few owned by young guys wrenching. Good reasonable and fun people. Hope they have many happy successful years ahead.

eschlwc

thread title is one thing. "gist of the sentiment predominant in this thread" is another.

like reading 'grapes of wrath,' getting all excited and yelling, "hey, there are no grapes in this book!"

etherhuffer 

I do my own work for lack of quality at shops. If a shop does well, better to pay them. Stu is great. He does good work.

3alarmer

...you must know that once a week, for four or five hours every Saturday, I see a long parade of
bicycles that have been worked on both by their previous owners, their current owners, and every bicycle
shop that works on them for money in the immediate metropolitan area......which probably includes the
San Francisco bay area as well (bikes move around in NorCal).

There is a huge body of sadly deficient mechanical work rolling around on the streets in the form of bicycles.

As someone who regularly strips, straightens, repairs, and reassembles my own project bikes, I know enough to
realize that some of them were badly set up or misaligned from the day they were sold, brand new, back in 1973.

All of this is only in the way of saying, sure, there are some serious problems in the bike repair business, but
this is not a new phenomenon, and while it has gotten worse as this job has become less viable as a career, it
is not unique to bike repair, or to the times in which we live, or even to a few repair places.

I get asked all the time where people should take a bicycle for paid repair, and I honestly have trouble
recommending a specific place, because as one or two have already written, it largely depends on the particular
person who does the work, much more so than the individual business.

One last additional point. That bike co-ops exist at all is in large part due to the gradually increasing hole
in this segment of the bike repair market. In fact, at least two or three of the local shops support us with
donations of stuff because they don't see us as competition, rather as a useful adjunct, to which they can
send people with bikes that are simply not economically feasible for them to repair. So because I know a
number of the guys who run the fix it section in these shops, perhaps I am more sympathetic to their plight.

3alarmer

...yes you do.

eschlwc

^ not arguing. "correcting."

you have a problem with the thread title. ok. i recognize that.

Dirt Road

Classic Hammond organs. Tube type, two electric motors, a fully-mechanical tone (sounds) generator, and a monstrosity of hand-loomed point-to-point wiring. Many of them are 50+ years old now and still working in churches, clubs, and homes. Several companies still support them, overhaul them, and provide replacement parts.

I'm just learning how to work on my own bike. Both "local" bike shops have been nice to me. One is a family-operated home-town operation that serves casual biking. The other is a college-town cyclery with a show-room and modern bikes on display. Neither would particularly welcome old steel, but I think the bigger town dealer would be more likely to have SOMEONE who know what the parts are.

curbtender

Didn't read this thread, but it would be more productive to point to those that have the knowledge and the tools...

3alarmer

...there you go.

verktyg 

Hammond B3 with a Leslie or 3...

Hammond organ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

verktyg

Chas.

etherhuffer 

Those are good and fair points.It has to be a very tough business. That said, let's just sum up a C+V bike: Brakes, cabling, shifters, wheel bearings, spokes, crank, bottom bracket etc None of those components require special knowledge. I have an old RX7 with a rotary engine. The only components on that car that are special are the engine and the distributor. Not one other item is different from any other car of the day. Anyone should be able to walk into a bike shop with an old bike and ask for anything except a derailleur. Old friction derailleurs are less common, but friction is just two set screws and a mounting bolt. I think what frustrates people is that those who are tired of wrenching or just don't want to cannot see the mystery in a bike that 15 year olds used to fix on their own. It is odd to me that a shop cannot pull out some calipers or bolt thread gauge etc to fix an old bike. More odd stuff like kickback two speeds, internally geared hubs etc are indeed different, but heck, I can rebuild my chainsaw carb after a youtube tutorial. Cannot the person in the repair business be bothered to do a few oddball fixes on occasion? I think what is lacking is imagination. Fix a few of the older machines and you get credit for that. It gets paid back in new sales, other repairs, etc. People in business for the long haul do stuff that does not always pay today, but pays back over years. I bought all my bikes from age 12 to 24 from the same shop. No attitude, no complaints, no bike fitting fees, just good honest advice and repairs done well. Poor work these days comes from those who choose to organize labor(regardless of knowledge) rather than provide that labor themselves. 3 wrenches with minimum skills allows the owner to NOT wrench. The kids who worked the old Schwinn shop in my town had to answer to the old man who owned the place, and they learned fast. Is it the same now? I don't know but I hope some shops are still this way.

verktyg 

Curiosity in the mother of invention, not necessity!

Back in the paleolithic days, those hominids who weren't curious quickly became Purina Saber Tooth Cat Chow!

Back to the topic of this thread, some of the valid points are the attitudes demonstrated by some bike shop employees when someone comes in with a C&V bike.

At our shop in the 70s we didn't work on a lot of cheap bikes because the cost to make them minimally safe and rideable exceeded the value of the bike - then the customer still had a POS bike!

We DID take the time to explain our reasoning to the CUSTOMERS we turned away and suggested where they could get their bikes repaired.

Sometimes we were able to sell them a better quality bike in the end and many became avid cyclists.

My my complaints are about arrogant "ignert" (ignorant equates to illiterate - someone who can't read) bike shop employees who look down their noses at anyone who's not there to buy or have serviced, the latest and lightest overpriced bike.

What I said above about curiosity applies to to these folks too.

When you spend your life sucking someone's wheel, you never get to see what it's like off the front! (insult aimed at wannabe raceurs, many of whom work in bike shops)

Learning a little about historic bikes and being able to discern what's a refugee from Hyundai or Kia and a decent quality classic bike doesn't take much effort. Showing the C&V owners a little courtesy doesn't hurt either.

When I walk into a business I expect to be treated like a customer.

One Christmas Eve at closing time, a man walked into our shop looking to buy a bike as a gift. He said he didn't have his wallet with him but asked if I could take a check - then he showed me his business card... He was Edgar Bronfman CEO of Seagrams.

I quickly put a bike together for him and everyone ended up happy.

I expect to be treated like a customer and I treated people the same way when I was on the other side of the counter.

verktyg

Chas.

Bikedued

The guy I worked for in LC made $140k Specialized orders, owned a Mercedes and an Avalanche, and had just moved into his new house less than a mile from a state park(NICE area and house) before I moved away. He also bought a new boat about the same time. Oh yeah, the bike shop was in a brand new custom building as well. That's rich enough in my book? Of course it probably didn't hurt that his wife's parents were already millionaires.,,,,BD

Bottom line is that the employees are probably struggling to make ends meet, but at least some of the shop owners not so much.

curbtender

You sold him a Seven, right?

etherhuffer 

A tandem 7. That's a 14!

3alarmer

...once again, in case you misunderstood. I am not the only poster here who has pointed out that some of the
major issues in this situation simply have to do with economics. Does your Mazda dealer still stock all the parts for your
RX-7, with the exception of the engine ? Of course not.

He would have to build a separate building just to stock all that stuff. Can your local bike shop order what they need
to fix your ancient bike ? Maybe. But every time that mechanic you are paying has to stop and scratch his head, or
sit down and list up a special order, or any of the other things that slow you down on an older bike (like other stuff that
you find wrong, or corrosion issues with spoke nipples, stems, posts.....really the list of stupid stuff that can slow you
down is pretty endless), you either eat the cost, or you pass it on to the consumer.

There is a shop out in Fair oaks here that gives us a couple of truckloads annually of bicycle cycles that are a mix of
Chinese mart bikes that are disposable, and older, pretty functional stuff that needs some TLC. It is all stuff that folks
brought in to get fixed, and when they heard the estimate, said no thanks, just get rid of it for me.

These guys, at least, I'm relatively sure could do the work, but there's simply no economically sensible way to do so.

if we had to pay our people, who are all volunteers (a few of whom work in bike shops as their day jobs), we would be
folding up the tent tomorrow. You can talk all you want about future payback for good intentions and service, but in
my time here I've seen at least two competently run, well managed bike shops go tits up.

The internet marketing is ferocious in terms of parts, and the larger chain stores we have now, like Performance and Mikes,
have eaten a lot of the lunch that used to be lying around.

In the spirit of altering this thread to be "possibly more useful", I can state that you can usually find good repair service
for older bikes here in Sacramento, CA at the Edible Pedal, which is kind of a niche market shop, targeted at this sort
of stuff. do not tell them I sent you, because nobody really likes me anywhere. But be prepared to pay a fair market
rate for your work, and don't expect miracles, because some stuff really is impractical to fix.

etherhuffer 

Not being in that biz, I concede the point. And yes, internet plus consolidation to large chains hurts small guys. Overhead eats up the small shops, especially in high lease rate areas. I see that in a lot of small businesses. How do those small shops(any kind) make it in NYC and other spendy places?

wrk101

At least they have customers or potential customers. Here in Hooterville, rents are incredibly cheap. But customers are scarce too. And wages are low, really low for the average working person. So you have very few customers, and fewer yet with any money. At least the cost of living is lower too, so shop owners don't have to make as much to survive.

r0cket88

Personally , I have had my bad experiences and found my better local shops because of them. But my bad experiences differ from a lot of peoples experiences here.
I have been in the service industry (automobile in my case) for a long time personally. And I have always found that it isn't always the knowledge of a certain system, but the relationship you have with the customer and the willingness to treat them honestly and well.

My worst experience involving a local shop, had me stopping in to replace a spoke that I broke on a ride. everything else on the bike was working fine. They replaced the spoke and got me back on the road. This happened to be a DS spoke on the rear wheel. Further down the road I noticed that the rear mech cage was hitting the new spoke at the cross with the existing spoke. Took the bike back to the shop that replaced the spoke and told them what was going on.

Here in lies the problem. All he heard was derailuer hitting the spokes. He didn't want to listen to anything else I had to say. Nothing about the prior repair history or what I had attempted to do to rectify the situation. He adjusted my limits on the rear mech and said, there you go its good now. No testing , no asking me to ride it and see if it fixed it.

I eventually found a shop that was willing to LISTEN to me and help me work things out. Checked the hanger for parallel, checked spoke tension, and we eventually found it was just a combination of those small errors that ate up the clearance between the cage and the spoke. But because this shop Listened to me, they get all of my business now even though I need to go out of my way to go there.

Ultimately, a lot of the issues in larger turn-n-burn shops has to do with a lack of understanding of how a system works.
You bring a newer bike into a major "fast service" shop and they often know that "I need to check this setting or that adjustment etc." but they don't always recognize WHY they need to check those settings. A lot of Service in general is lacking in the "Why" aspect of service. Why do you need to adjust those limit screws or that cable tension. Do they understand how all of the systems can interact and stack to cause problems not related to any one single adjustment?

So for me service (of any kind) is based on three things:
1) forming a quality relationship with your customer.
2) Communicating well with your customer.
3) the base understanding of the system you are servicing that includes the "Why" of the repair.

Personally in my own customer relationships am perfectly willing to tell my customers when I don't know the answer and will have to find it. But my customers trust me to find the correct answer and repair the problem correctly to the best of my ability and I get lots of repeat customers because of that.

Coal Buster

As far as C&V and shops go, you have to pick your battles, so to speak. In the middle of winter, my guy will spend an hour chatting with me about old bikes while he fiddles with my Raleigh. For example, last winter he rethreaded my Raleigh BB to standard thread while I waited for $20. I would never expect him to do the same in the summer when he's got customers coming in looking at $2000 bikes. How much could he charge where it would even make sense for him to do that without insulting me?