Giacomo 1 

I've been thinking of taking a crack at track racing, or at least doing some training on a track. I am fortunate to live close by a velodrome.

So I've been looking at e-bay for a decent track bike or frame to build up, and I keep coming across these Keirin approved track frames that are made-in-Japan, and all are located in Japan.They seem to come in a wide variety of brands, most of which I've never heard of, however Bridgestone seems to be pretty popular. There are anywhere from 10-20 on e-bay at any one time and most come from the same seller who has a 100% feedback. They never mention the tubing type, and they really run the gamut on prices from say $200 - $800.

They all seem to be the same, so what should I be looking for and are these decent frames to build? Here is an example - Nagasawa Bluish Gray NJS Approved KEIRIN Frame Track Bike Fixed Gear | eBay

Anything else I should know about track frames?

randomgear

see here, under equipment: Keirin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Giacomo 1 

Thanks for the link. Interesting.

A lot of big time Japanese brands there, but there seems to be little difference in equipment, and that's the way they wanted it. I wonder what the "NJS approved materials" are, such as tubing? Are these bikes light or heavy? My guess is these would be good for track racing or riding here as well...

Italuminium

There's even a Campagnolo Super Record, NJS approved track group! Available for sale if you happen to be somewhat unattached to your firstborns and/or stash of unicorn tears.

there are some nice video's on youtube about these builders, from what I've seen the NJS mark applies to specifc builders and basic specs, not tubing per se. I'd expect Ishiwata and Tange to be represented.

randomgear

A better place to post this would be the singlespeed and fixed gear forum.

The NJS stamp means that you end up paying top dollar for what would otherwise go for far less. While I don't race or even follow track racing, I understand that there are no requirements in the rest of the world to use NJS equipment on tracks.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

For the price a modern aluminum frame can't be beat on the track.

Steel is really nice on the road but a reasonably strong rider will benefit from the additional stiffness of an aluminum frame.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

He should post this in the Track racing forum if that's what he is really interested in.

Giacomo 1 

I posted here because these are vintage frames, mostly from late 80's -90.

Plus, this is where I hang out!

But I will eventually post this there.

I did look at some modern aluminum frames to, as they are pretty cheap and look like an easy and painless way to get started. I'm going down to the velodrome to watch a bit soon, so I'll see what the guys ride and maybe get some pointers to...

iab

I am a sucker for Nagasawa, sweet bikes.

There is this site, NJS EXPORT

It has been a while since I have been there, seems the prices have gone up dramatically. Lots of eye candy though.

Giacomo 1 

Yeah they are very nice. That guy is expensive, more than I see them on eBay for.

My dream would be a Colnago track frame, but I think my wife would leave me if I spent that much for one! In general, the geometry of the Italian track frames look much racier and with steeper angles than these Keirin bikes have.

I'll be keeping my eyes open for an Italian frame if I go the vintage route. If I go modern, it won't matter much...

Bandera

Go to the track, join a club and try the rental bikes and the new rider's program.
It's an inexpensive way to find out if the sport is for you.
By joining a club you will be in the loop as riders upgrade bikes and sell "obsolete" bikes at a big discount to teammates.
That's how I got my lightly crashed Zeus "back when" and how I sold it off.

The reality of ex-track bikes is that they have all been wrecked, some lightly some repeatedly and heavily: Caveat Emptor.

The Kerin governing body has frozen the technical specs for racing bikes quite a while ago to ensure a technical level playing field.
NJS assures a well wrecked retired race bike of obsolescent spec sold for premium prices, just the thing for Fixie Street Cred, not so much for serious competition.

Good luck and get a coach.

-Bandera

himespau 

^^^That lines up with what I've heard about used NJS Keirin bikes. They've been used hard and put away wet for quite a while and can be rather abused.

repechage

The geometry of the Japanese bikes will vary but most of the examples I have seen are reasonable. I have one, I got it as a low value bike so that if I am on the track with newbies I have less concern. At the local velodrome, the ADT Carson wood track it is intimidating for many, 45 degrees in the turns, 250 meters. One has to take the "class" to be checked out so you can ride it. Actually a reasonable thing but I am not going to use the big value bike for that.

I think the aggressive geometry sometimes is useful if you are doing matched sprints and really really can exploit the quick handling. Otherwise the typical NJS frame will be a far better choice. You will have an easier time riding a straight line and that can keep you safe. Also, when running full out and feeling the G forces in the turns a bike with a bit of trail just is more confidence inspiring.
And you will shave your legs, yes? Or if not wear tights, one has to keep up appearances you know. Nothing shouts Fred bigger at the track than leg hair.

repechage

Some but not all, these racers are superstitious, if they were not winning as the feel they should be they get a new mount.
Maybe even change builders. I understand that fully.
The bikes that had a brake clamped on and saw road use get beat, otherwise they stay pretty nice.
A top tube dent is retirement by the way. Not that it renders it useless but no longer NJS acceptable.
The cheap ones will have top tube dents.

Nagasawa would be a favorite choice for me but when I was looking there just were not any in my size. I ended up with a Maruishi. Terrific shape. Be sure to note the rear spacing, some are 120, some 110. The overwhelming majority of track wheels are 120. Cinelli on their pursuit bikes and Masi would do 110 on occasion, with a narrow BB shell too.

rhm

I don't live anywhere near a velodrome, so the calculus is different for me.
It is very unlikely I'll be riding my 'track bike' on an actual track. But somehow I suspect even if I did live near a velodrome, I'd still ride that bike more on roads than on the track. If that's also true of you, our even if it might be; if you think you'd be doing the Central Park loop on it, then I'd suggest getting something you enjoy riding on both road and track. And that includes the aesthetics of the matter. If you're not into Japanese bikes anyway, and will continue to pine for an Italian one, then that's what you should be looking for.

Giacomo 1 

Yeah, I've thought about joining the club there or at least giving it a go in practice before making a purchase.

Yeah, I've noticed that quite a few of them have some sort of damage.


I'll need some of that! Thanks!

andr0id

The main point to take away is that unless you are a Keirin racer actually racing professionally in Japan, you really don't care about NJS approval.

The main reason for the NJS approval is because Keirin racing is a betting sport in Japan and heavily regulated including the bikes and parts to avoid any fraud.

If you're interested in track racing, set up a bike for mass start events as your first track bike. That means buy a track frame that fits and don't worry if it's NJS or not. Then put decent quality hubs and cranks on it. If they're from Japan, they will likely be NJS approved. This is a side effect that we don't really care about.

noglider 

What size do you need? I have a Leader frame I raced at Kissena this summer I'm selling. It's a 55cm. Email me at the address below.

Giacomo 1 

Thanks for the tips. Especially about shaving your legs! One never wants to look like the newbie on the block, even when you are. Besides, my wife has been wondering when I was going to start shaving my legs since I got more serious about my road biking.

Good stuff on bike geometry and how it can effect the way you ride, especially to look for rear spacing of 120, not 110. I likely would have missed that fact. My velodrome doesn't have 45 degree banking, thankfully! Yes, that would be intimidating. It's an outdoor track covered in asphalt with lower banking, although I'm not sure what degree they are or how long the track is. Seems to be a lot of guys riding steel there which is a plus in my book.

Here are some pics I found if you care to check the place out - https://www.flickr.com/photos/epmd/230410699/

Giacomo 1 

Sent Tom!