Hi everybody.


I found this unusual colnago. At first I thought it was a colnago mexico ESA from the bad photos. On picking up the bike i noticed it was unusual. It has 4 ESA like crimps on the top tube and on the seat tube and 5 master like crimpd on the downtube. It has a nuovo mexico rear end (seat stay with colnago stamp) with a colnago stamp on the chain stay with a small groove. It has a colnago stamp and nr 085 on the dropouts. The bottom bracket is unique in that it has the classic colnago mexico cut out but is double butted by the seat tube which is 1cm thinner than a corresponding Nuovo mezico seat tube. The seat post is around 26.8 also unusual size. the lugs are all correct for colnago but it is missing the clover on the downtube. My gut feeling is that it a very early prototype masters between 6 crimps ESA (top and seat tube 4 crimps) and 4 crimp master (5 crimp downtube).


Any comments appreciated


Ann


https://smaltycbr.imgur.com/all/

The photo's are not available to the general public on that site Ann. There may be some way of making them open for public viewing.

Knowing the frame and it's unusual build specs. I'm sure it will bring quite a bit of discussion and hopefully, identification.

Thanks Gary,

I think you may be able to see it now. I drove to the classic vintage jumble sale in Dressel Belgium from The Hague in Holland last weekend and meet some people I know who restore a lot of early colnagos. Each one never saw a bike like it. It has a colnago stamp on the drop out so it should be able to be traced.

That bike has a number of curiosities. the sleeve to the bottom bracket from the seat tube, that would account for the small seat tube diameter.
Those have to be the deepest COLNAGO crimps I have ever seen on chain stays.
The graphics package looks like part of an aftermarket paint job, they are from an earlier era to my eye.

That is about it. Unusual. Not sure about the prototype angle, more like a design exercise for some reason.
The only other Colnagos I have seen that just look odd but are probably legitimate were the ones for the 1980 Olympic Soviet team time trial squad.

YES - they are viewable.

Wow, this frame is in much better condition that I first thought. It looks quite original to me.

I agree with your excellent description of tubes, lugs, etc.

My guess (like yours) is that it was built around the time the ESA Mexico was built and perhaps a prelude to the Master being built. Indeed a Master prototype/design exercise. I love the way the downtube was kind of shimmed to fit the bottom bracket. The mix of tubing profiles is so interesting too. The head tube lugs hark from the previous era and are my personal favourite Colnago lug profile.

Both chain stays being stamped 'COLNAGO' is unusual and the left stamping is stamped in an area that has been purposely flattened - interesting. The seat stay caps look to be early 80's - interesting.

I personally don't think the numbers stamped on the rear RH dropout will mean anything to us meer mortals - it was probably some sort of code used at Colnago or the frame builder that put it together. I don't think anyone has been able to translate the Colnago serial number system.

I love this frame. I hope others find it interesting too.

Yes the sleeve or double butting we all came to the conclusion is to reinforce such a extra thin seat tube. I own and have seen a lot of early colnago's super, mexicos and masters so I can see it is not likely to be a fake. The size of the seat tube and I cm thinner gives rise to the narrow seat tube diameter. Normally 27.2 ... not sure what steel it is columbus aelle has 26.8 but would not be racing class although i have read some slx tubing of that time may have smaller diameters. What is interesting is the groove on the colnago motif on the chain stay, normally for the mexico's the groove is on the inside. It also has a slight inside groove.

I am not sure if colnago sold parts seperately so someone could assemble such a bike then? But then the BB is a one off with the genuine colnago panto . But it could be something that was assembled like you say a design for a particular racing purpose try out. It seems to have a mix of all late 70 early 80s types..

The paint looks like a team aftermarket colour paint sponsored by a particular shop thus not sure what it might originally have been, not an original colnago paint job . The BB with the true colnago motif with the extra sleeve is a definite one off, so someone must have made it especially for that tubing mixture.

Would love to know how it came about and for what purpose..

Where did you come by it. Can you contact the previous owner and question her/him? I suppose you have gone down that track already Ann.

Interesting bike. Probably Colnago.

What is the name in the decal on the downtube?
Perhaps contact them and see if they can give you some history on the bike (unless they were the original vendor).

The bike shop here in Holland no longer exists but they did sell colnago's. Another bike shop is at the same address so when i have time I will try see if they have links to the previous shop. It looks like it was a shop sponsored racing bike.

I have been toying with the idea of stipping the bike back to the bare metal and see if the downtube lug does have a colnago cutout that might have been filled in.

But being a woman I love the pink ... lol

All I know from the previous owners was that the bike was raced and past onto them...

I wouldn't bother stripping the frame to find a Colnago cutout - My guess is that one doesn't exist. I think it would be a job no one would bother doing. From your photos the frame paint looks to be in very good condition. The down tube decals look like they have 'disappeared' where the tube is crimped. The decal probably didn't stick to that area very well when it was applied. It would be difficult to apply the decal to the concaved surface. I think the pink and silver looks fresh and suits the frame.

You could probably replace the damaged decals with 'Cyclemondo' reproduction decals. Me, I would paint in the missing parts of the decal with a fine brush - but - I have practices this technique for many years and it takes a steady hand and lots or patience.

Sorry for all my responses to this thread - I don't mean to monopolise discussion. I too would love to read what others think of this frame - my responses are only my unqualified guesses.

Don't strip it.
It looks like it is in quite good original condition. And you said you like the color. You'll have a lot of troubles duplicating the Colnago color schemes, and destroy any resale value.

Not having cutouts (except the BB) is odd. Not even on the forks? But don't worry about hunting for something that isn't there.

If it rides nice, then ride and enjoy it.

Hi, Yes it rides great and handles well and the paint condition is very good.
The Retinato paint scheme on the very thin seat tube is a classic colnago paint scheme of mid 80s I believe so it might be the original paint scheme after all.

I will though rebuild with super record groupset as the group set does not match the bike.
I have an Ofmega sprint colnago panto set however which might suit better or just leave as it is. However the fork is not standard colnago would like to find a masters or mexico form to swap.

I posted some extra pics for comparison with other early colnagos .. the blue colnago nuovo profili and the green a first generation mexico and a colnago saronni with no panto on the downtube lug (so it did happen sometimes). You will notice how thin the seat tube is. Also how flattened the chain stays are in comparison. The back end is more like first generation colnago. Also the routing of the cables is odd at the back it exists from the other side than expected at the back end.

There just seems too many modifications BB/tubes that there must be a record of it somewhere.

This may be a bit 'out there' but I was considering why the rear exit hole for the brake cable was located on the RHS of the top tube. My answer is that it was placed there to line-up with the rear brake calliper cable housing, adjuster and clamp. Finding a rear brake calliper with the cable entering on the right hand side is quite unusual. Most component makers have the cable entering on the left hand side of the calliper.

The only top end brake sets I could find from the early 1980's era were the Shimano 105 Golden Arrow calliper, Weinmann 500 Gold or 730 Delux, GB Coureur Plus or Dia-Comp callipers like their Aero Gran Comp or N-Brakes. Perhaps there are others but this was the only one I could find.

My conclusion: If your frame build date was circa 1893/4, it is my guess that your frame was made to accommodate a Shimano group set - probably Shimano 105 Golden Arrow.

Suntour - LHS
Universal - LHS
Mavic - LHS
Camagnolo - LHS
Gipiemme - LHS
Dia-Comp - LHS or RHS
Shimano - LHS, Centre or RHS (Shimano were making great advances in Professional circles)
Galli - LHS
GB Coureur Plus - RHS
Zeus - LHS
Weinmann 500 / 730 - RHS
Modolo - LHS

Thanks Gary for the info. The cable exiting on the other side RHS is quite unusual and does not make sense comparing IT with most italian bikes. I posted a photo. it has Shimano BR-A550, RX100 dual pivot calipers and groupeset which was below 105 at that time which is also odd placing it close to 90s. I would have expected Dura ace or Ultergra then?

But then this set could have been added later. Hmm not sure what to do leave as standard (groupset) and find a fitting fork for the frame. I called the shop BRIMA heesch does not exist anymore and the bike shop in it place has no contact. i posted the shop sticker maybe some one will recognise it,

I think the first thing to do is settle on an approximate build date - I'm suggesting pre Master which would be 1983/4/5. Colnago obviously designed the frame with the unusual RHS exit hole for the brake cable housing. I think it's a safe bet that this was no mistake. I would be looking for a 'top-end' brake set from that era that would suit a RH brake cable/housing exit hole. I'm suggesting Shimano 105 Golden Arrow. Shimano was making great advances in the bike component world at the time.

Shimano used centre pull brake callipers for their Dura Ace and 600 group sets around that time (I think). I'm definitely not an expert in all things Shimano. Centre pulls would also work with either LH or RH exit hole placement. The exit hole is well down (3 to 4 o'clock) on the top tube which would create a sharp bend in the cable housing from exit hole to brake calliper if centre pulls were used thus my 105 Golden Arrow suggestion.

I think Colnago would have been developing their internal brake cable/housing techniques/technology at that time in preparation for models like the Master Piu.

My recommendation: If it was my frame I would be looking to build the frame up with a Shimano 105 Golden Arrow groupset and be satisfied that it is a Master prototype/design exercise.

Wow- big statement - what do others think?

Thanks for in he input gary...

I am think now more higher end campagnolo C record Delta ..

VeloBase.com - Component: Campagnolo Delta, C-Record

or

Shimano Dura Ace Ax Delta remmen
But your exit hole theory would need to be tested also with the shimano golden arrow.

If it really is a prototype should it not be in a meuseum?

You probably have the room to fit a campy Delta brake but the first generation Delta's were probably the next generation of brake technology being introduced in or around 1986. I personally love the look of C-Record and wouldn't really care if the build date of the frame and the build date of the brakes were a little different. I am unfortunately a Campagnolo 'nut'.

As for a Museum - It would have to be a Museum that traces the development of the Colnago marque perhaps. I think you should ride it and take it to cycling events like the jumble sale in Dressel you were talking about and show it to those that would be interested. Ann, I'm in no doubt that you will look after this great bike and it will not be neglected in any way.

Beautiful bike! Shimano 600 EX Arabesque calipers also pull from the right side and would have been 78-84. Golden Arrow 83-86 had a right and a left pull version. Colnago Super Timeline The rear seat stay cap fluted and stamped suggests 80-81, the Colnago rear dropouts suggest 78-80?, the bottom bracket cable routing suggests 82 on, the stamped chainstay suggests 82. The lack of a crease on the inside of the chainstay is a Mexico visual. All the Supers have the crease. My 82/83 Superissamo has flat, stamped seat stay caps and Campagnolo dropouts. From your pictures It looks as though the right chainstay does not have that flat area at the Colnago stamping. Are they different? I would keep it & ride it but probably never stop trying to figure out it's history. It is special!

What if you mounted the brake calipers in front of the seat stay instead of behind the seat stay?

Your frame has "Super" written on it.
So, perhaps a late model Super?

Although your idea of a transition frame sounds reasonable.

Thanks for the input guys.

The shimano theory sounds spot on gary and I will test the reverse brake theory peugeot mongrol - good idea but never saw a super with crimps only mexico so the super decal is puzzling.

My ignorance made me me always associate campy with Italian and colnago. However, I do have an Ijsboertje colnago colner (Belgium team second colnago mark to get around race rules) which is fitted with arabesque group and also a NOS original gios torino 1979 coin model fitted with super record campy but the headset is arabesque. I found a second gios 1979 the same in need of restoration also with arabesque headset so it is not a swap, it happened!.

I never really associated shimano arabesque/arrow as racing quality but that is my shimano ignorance and campy preference.

I measured the chain stays on the pink colnago versus a colnago nuovo profili mexico

They are thinner ... LHS 13.53- 13,97mm (pink) vs 15.58-15.53 (nuovo mexico). At this time 82 colango was experimenting with the cx aero if I am correct. Thus stream lining was in focus. I do know someone with a vintage cx aero must look at chain stays.

Does anyone know when was the first colnago ESA or masters was released? I think the 80-85 year theory fits (crimping era and ESA MEXICO masters ?)

Gary I will ask my restorer friend Ian de costa in England to draw up replica decals he is a master at colnago vintage frame restoration and reproducing colnago decals. Not that i am not patient but with 4 young kids time is short ...lol

I met up with him at Dressel. He is restoring a colnago ESA mexico frame for me.

I plan the bike to use as my vintage ride for the vintage steel rides here in holland. I am proud and fortunate to have such a colnago bike in my collection

My normal ride is a koga myiata gran lux with C record ergo shifters. Bikes get stolen here in holland !

Ann

Good on you Ann, you sound very passionate and have some very nice bikes. With 4 small children, I can't really appreciate just how hard it must be to find time for a hobby let alone arranging restorations, etc.

I think your appreciation of the Colnago era is very good and I am hoping to learn from your investigations. I don't place too much importance in the decals currently on your frame - I think the 'Super' decal is a false lead and only there because it is just there.

If it were a prototype/design exercise, I can imagine that some frame components may be from previous models such as the seat stay caps and head tube lugs. I think the main reason for this frame being built was to test tube profiles, perhaps internal brake cable routing and perhaps frame geometry. But, who really knows why it was built?

I am looking forward to the next stage in this frames life.

Best wishes,

Gary.

I just found something intersesting which has some similarities to my colnago: Colnago Record Ora Mexico Timetrial bike except it has aero shifters.

Note the brake calipers are at the rear of the front forks and and rear stays.

Colnago 1980 039 S Time Trial Bicycle 034 Record ORA Mexico 1972 034 26 034 Front Wheel Rare | eBay

Interesting bike.
A few differences from yours such as a different shift lever boss, and a really odd brake stud mounted to the forks.

I'm not sure why the standard is to mount the brake calipers behind the seat stay. Access? There used to be a problem on hard braking that one would pull the brake pads between the seat stays, and essentially lock the brakes. I haven't heard of that problem for quite some time, but with the direction of rotation of the tires, it would make most sense to put the brakes in front of the forks, as well as in front of the seat stays.

Also for cargo bikes, it would get them out of the way.

What a beautiful and interesting bike! To confirm what is fairly obvious from your pictures: is the brake bridge designed for a recessed nut? which side of the bridge has the larger dia. for the nut? This should help to resolve which side of the bridge/stays the caliper was meant to be mounted. The Colnago in the Post #22 link has 'reverse' mounting built into the brake bridge (recessed nut facing outside the rear triangle, caliper toward the seat tube), and everything here looks very much to me like 'standard' design (recessed nut facing seat tube, caliper outside the rear triangle), but you would certainly know better than I - and that's not to say that a workaround couldn't be implemented to mount the rear caliper in 'reverse', but why design a workaround into the bike when it would be simpler to reverse the bridge when building the frame? ...and why design the cable to exit from the rear of the TT on the drive side for use with a standard caliper in the standard position (cable to non-drive side)? A bit of a mystery. Perhaps this is just a matter of making do with what was on hand for a bike that may have never been intended to make it into public hands (though I'd expect rather plain paint in that case...). The idea of the bike being designed for Shimano hardware is just a little hard to stomach for me personally, but it certainly isn't without precedent. Gary's is a good theory that certainly makes sense (and he's certainly more knowledgeable than I am!).

Rare Colnago Mexico Time Trial/ Lo-Pro | saarf.net

More photos. There are some obvious tubing simularities with my pink colnago, the BB, rear end and the exit holes for the rear caliper. The differences are that my seat tube is much thinner and the down tube is masters like. I will contact the Italian seller and see if he has more information. But it seems colnago were experimenting a lot with time trial bikes then and aero dynamics and tubing preferences.