Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

mystery frame

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

mystery frame

Old 03-21-15, 12:16 PM
  #1  
oldguyonabike
Member
Thread Starter
 
oldguyonabike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Lowell Ma
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
mystery frame

whaddaya think ? an older british frame ?
been repainted
fork is not original
very distinctive lugs
curved brake bridge
wraparound stays
27.0 seat post
campy dropouts






Attached Images
File Type: jpg
mystery frame 1.jpg (64.2 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg
mystery frame 2.jpg (56.3 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg
mystery frame 5.jpg (59.8 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg
mystery frame 10.jpg (62.8 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg
mystery frame 8.jpg (83.4 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg
mystery frame 7.jpg (92.2 KB, 59 views)
oldguyonabike is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 12:24 PM
  #2  
Henry III
is just a real cool dude
 
Henry III's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Thumb, MI
Posts: 3,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 9 Posts
The wraparound stays normally indicate a British lineage and the lack of top tube cable guides and long Campy dropouts point to something early to mid 70's or possibly late 60's.

Last edited by Henry III; 03-21-15 at 12:28 PM.
Henry III is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 01:34 PM
  #3  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 23,483

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 136 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2937 Post(s)
Liked 1,948 Times in 1,166 Posts
Those extended-bevel wrap-over seat stays and curved bridge may be clues. Poke around here and see what you can find:

British Main
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 01:35 PM
  #4  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 398 Posts
Yes an older British frame, not that unusual with Prugnat lugs and long full-wrap stays...curved bridge might be a helpful clue, but it certainly looks Holdsworth-like to me at first blush. Any serial number on the BB shell (or elsewhere?). 27.0 would say it could be a thicker wall seat tube than regular 531DB, possibly plain-gauge.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 03:18 PM
  #5  
oldguyonabike
Member
Thread Starter
 
oldguyonabike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Lowell Ma
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
number on bottom bracket . 2963
looking down from the saddle its on the right side in front parallel to the bottom of the seat post
and its upside down .... if that makes sense lol
thanks all
oldguyonabike is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 03:39 PM
  #6  
bertinjim 
Senior Member
 
bertinjim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 1,359

Bikes: 1960s Bertin C37, 1973 Carre Bertin C 37, 1970s Carlton Kermesse, 1982 Peugeot PB 12

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked 148 Times in 107 Posts
oldguy-

Looks like a Holdsworth Mistral or similar. Try here.
bertinjim is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 03:48 PM
  #7  
Bianchigirll 
Bianchi Goddess
 
Bianchigirll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 28,351

Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.

Mentioned: 156 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2340 Post(s)
Liked 1,394 Times in 824 Posts
Welcome to the "Unknown Frame" Club.
__________________
One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"

Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
Bianchigirll is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 04:27 PM
  #8  
rjhammett
Senior Member
 
rjhammett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 2,284

Bikes: 92 Colnago Master PIU, 83 Pinarello Record, 92 Tommaso, 92 Merckx MX Leader, 90 Serotta Colorado II, 99 Tommasini Sintesi, 90 Pinarello Montello, 89 Tommasini Super Prestige, 08 Look 585, 89 Merckx Corsa Extra, 72 Holdsworth Professional and 3 more

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked 375 Times in 175 Posts
I have been a member for about 3 years now. It still bugs me that I don't know what make/model bike I have.

Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
Welcome to the "Unknown Frame" Club.
rjhammett is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 04:37 PM
  #9  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 40,135

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 493 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6992 Post(s)
Liked 1,713 Times in 1,067 Posts
'S nice!
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 04:47 PM
  #10  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,331 Times in 839 Posts
Unicrown fork unrelated..
fietsbob is offline  
Old 03-21-15, 06:51 PM
  #11  
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,005

Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1164 Post(s)
Liked 704 Times in 495 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
... 27.0 would say it could be a thicker wall seat tube than regular 531DB, possibly plain-gauge.
... or a slightly loose fit. Plain gauge 531 takes a 26.4 or 26.6 seatpost.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 12:09 AM
  #12  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 398 Posts
Originally Posted by John E View Post
... or a slightly loose fit. Plain gauge 531 takes a 26.4 or 26.6 seatpost.
Yes and No: back when this frame was (probably) made Reynolds supplied Plain Gauge 531 tubesets in 3 different gauge wall-thickness: 22, 21 and 20 swg, these all in Imperial dimensions so a seat tube of 1.125" OD. If you have a frame with the (shifting to metric-speak now) wall-thickness of 0.7mm then the seat tube opening would be 27.2 and typically reamed for .2mm clearance so a 27.0 seatpost. This is the same wall thickness at top of seat tube that later became used in the 531ST (Super Tourist) tubeset, and those took a 27.0 post, but the OP's frame is a little early for ST tubing, I think. The other 2 plain gauge walls would result in typical seatposts of 26.8 or 26.6 (for the medium and the heaviest gauge, respectively), but I don't think 26.4 would be 'correct' unless the heaviest tube got no reaming (or was in fact a 531Metric tube).
Of course, as said, OP should check and confirm that a 27.0 is the right size for this frame, my gut would say it's a nice enough frame to have been built with 531DB and so should take a 27.2, in an ideal world.

Last edited by unworthy1; 03-22-15 at 12:13 AM.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 09:21 AM
  #13  
oldguyonabike
Member
Thread Starter
 
oldguyonabike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Lowell Ma
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
ive looked at the early mistrals ( 1963 and up ) and they all have braze-ons , where as this frame only has a chainstay stop . there are no holes for a headbadge either .... hmmmm
oldguyonabike is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 09:28 AM
  #14  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,381
Mentioned: 113 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2382 Post(s)
Liked 1,298 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
oldguy-

Looks like a Holdsworth Mistral or similar. Try here.
Great minds think alike, curved brake bridge, wrap around stays, wolf's ear lugs... Holdsworth with an unfortunate coat of paint.
repechage is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 09:31 AM
  #15  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,381
Mentioned: 113 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2382 Post(s)
Liked 1,298 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by oldguyonabike View Post
ive looked at the early mistrals ( 1963 and up ) and they all have braze-ons , where as this frame only has a chainstay stop . there are no holes for a headbadge either .... hmmmm
Things can get removed, earlier bikes will have fewer. Examine the inside of the head tube very closely and or chemically strip the paint to see the history that may indeed have been covered up. MKM could look like this save the curved brake bridge.
repechage is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 09:34 AM
  #16  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,381
Mentioned: 113 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2382 Post(s)
Liked 1,298 Times in 981 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Yes and No: back when this frame was (probably) made Reynolds supplied Plain Gauge 531 tubesets in 3 different gauge wall-thickness: 22, 21 and 20 swg, these all in Imperial dimensions so a seat tube of 1.125" OD. If you have a frame with the (shifting to metric-speak now) wall-thickness of 0.7mm then the seat tube opening would be 27.2 and typically reamed for .2mm clearance so a 27.0 seatpost. This is the same wall thickness at top of seat tube that later became used in the 531ST (Super Tourist) tubeset, and those took a 27.0 post, but the OP's frame is a little early for ST tubing, I think. The other 2 plain gauge walls would result in typical seatposts of 26.8 or 26.6 (for the medium and the heaviest gauge, respectively), but I don't think 26.4 would be 'correct' unless the heaviest tube got no reaming (or was in fact a 531Metric tube).
Of course, as said, OP should check and confirm that a 27.0 is the right size for this frame, my gut would say it's a nice enough frame to have been built with 531DB and so should take a 27.2, in an ideal world.
And be sure that the seat lug ears are not collapsed a bit first, plenty of times errors get made by those who misassemble.
repechage is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 10:09 AM
  #17  
oldguyonabike
Member
Thread Starter
 
oldguyonabike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Lowell Ma
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
it looks like the original paint was red , unless that was another respray or primer . theres red and green and gray on the chromed dropouts . ill get a seat tube measuring tool tomorrow and check it completely , ears and all
oldguyonabike is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 12:50 PM
  #18  
rando_couche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,330
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 206 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
oldguy-

Looks like a Holdsworth Mistral or similar. Try here.
Just what I was going to say. That seat cluster is a Holdsworth "trademark", and the "wolf's ear" head lugs point to early 70's at the latest.

SP
OC, OR
rando_couche is offline  
Old 03-22-15, 12:55 PM
  #19  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 398 Posts
I too was thinking "Holdsworth" but it's not a slam-dunk (excuse the basketball expression). There were a number of other British builders that nearly copied a number of the most popular Holdsworth models, including the Mistral and Super Mistral. Ron Kitching (the "K" in MKM) did sell something like that, as did the "other" Butler: Geoffrey Butler and I'm sure there were others...
Speaking of Butlers, anybody know if a Claud Butler (actually another Holdsworth Brand after 1959) from this time-frame would have used a metal badge versus a decal on the headtube? I have a feeling this might explain a thing or 2 (like the serial number which seems sequential, not a Holdsworthy or Holdsworth-Putney-shop norm) and perhaps the curved brake bridge and different braze-ons as well.
Maybe.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 03-23-15, 12:57 PM
  #20  
oldguyonabike
Member
Thread Starter
 
oldguyonabike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Lowell Ma
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
so ........
on further examination the seat lug ears were collapsed a bit and when measured with cyclo gauge it measures 27.2 .
oldguyonabike is offline  
Old 03-23-15, 01:36 PM
  #21  
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,772

Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...

Mentioned: 549 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1863 Post(s)
Liked 390 Times in 257 Posts
Holdsworth-era Claud Butler frames had a metal head badge. The same, or very similar, Holdsworth-made frames were also badged Freddie Grubb (also with a metal badge). But apparently some frames went out with a decal rather than a metal badge.
__________________
www.rhmsaddles.com.
rhm is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
rch427
Classic & Vintage
14
11-03-15 05:03 PM
taner rona
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
9
03-28-13 02:49 PM
taner rona
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
12
03-06-13 12:57 PM
MrVo
Classic & Vintage
30
03-04-13 07:41 AM
rjhammett
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
7
10-24-12 04:27 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.