Seve

The higher you spin, the higher the demands on your cardiovascular system. No question about it.

The amount of force/power/watts per rpm is reduced as your cadence increases. Given that at a point in time you have a fixed amount of power, mathematics at play, after all. This has a beneficial impact on your leg muscles. The trade off is your cardiovascular system.

As has been mentioned a number of times, find your own "sweet spot" where your cardiovascular system is not overloaded at the expense of your muscles and the other way round.
This will change as your fitness levels changes.


There is no one-size fits all solution.

Peter_C

I am not a Pro~! I am 49yrs old and an uber-clyde at 344lbs. My left knee was replaced in 09, and my Ortho has stated many times that bike riding is hard on the knees (he does not ride) - the fact is that for every pound of pressure you put on a pedal, that is six pounds of pressure you are putting on a knee while it is in motion.

Research it all you like, everyone will tell you that 'mashing' under 60RPM while pushing hard, *WILL* harm your knees - PERIOD! It won't happen in a minute or maybe a day, but it will happen. Learning over time to keep a cadence over 70 will remove that worry. Also, if you talk to folks that do long miles (touring, Randos, etc) you will find that they favor high cadence, lower effort.

Now, you mention a big hill that all you could do was 50RPM. Why? Were you in your lowest gear? Were your legs too tired? Were you out of breath?

Please know that I got on my bike after 30+ yrs of not riding, and my first ride was bout 400ft, compared to my high of 41+ miles last July, at that point I was doing 100 mile weeks. I am not a bike 'snob', and am only trying to help you in an area of *my* biggest worry while cycling.

Glad you're here, and welcome to the herd~!

Peter_C

Am *not* meaning to disagree, but everything I have read, and been told (mostly on this great forum) has stated that 'aero' is not much of an issue at speeds below 15mph. Once a rider starts hitting 15mph and over, then aero becomes increasingly important. The one exception being headwinds.

Using myself as an example:
at the time 370+lbs
6'0"
Riding a comfort bike (Giant Suede DX) weighed 42lbs
Using 26X2.00 Marathon tires at 70PSI
Average speed not including stops was 12.3 most days.

*IF* I made drastic changes (thinking bout my first century)
An 'average' $1000 buck bike, say a LHT (Long Haul Trucker by Surly)
Changed to 700X32 tires at 110PSI +
Using posture, clothing, helmet, drops, etc to try to focus on being more aero I *might* gain as much as 15% more speed (but much less comfort, and much more thigh-belly-itis)

So, the numbers (not including stops) for a 100 mile ride:

Current bike and gear
100 miles / 12.3mph = 8.13hrs (8hrs 8mins)

New bike and gear
12.3+15%=14.145mph
100 miles / 14.145mph = 7.07hrs (7hrs 6mins)

Savings (assuming no stops, and other variables - I made this simple)
1.06hrs (1hr 3mins)

Now, there were a lot of 'ifs' in the above, but based on smarter more knowledgeable people's thoughts, both about being more aero, weight savings, narrower, higher pressure tires, etc... My comfort level would go down drastically! One person wondered that due to my lack of comfort, during the ride would I not use the saved time in more 'comfort' stops?

It would mean either buying a second bike, or, not riding the 'Towpath' between Akron and Massillon here in Ohio which is mostly crushed limestone (2" Marathons being wonderful on it). Also, the Giant (with extras and tax) was a $600 bike.

The point of this rather long post (IMO) is for the beginner, or many of the clydes/uber-clydes here is that 'aero' is not that important of a issue vs comfort (in regards as to how often the OP will ride). The fastest bike in the world won't be ridden often if it is not comfortable to a major degree.

In my book, enjoyment, hours riding (not miles riding) is what is important. Learning basic skills that increase comfort, safety, and lastly performance, will help to increase ride time.

Again, when I first started riding, once I got past the 400-1000ft rides, I then moved up to 10-15 minute rides with stops, only then did I move to the Towpath, doing out-and-backs, first 3 miles, then 5 miles, then 20, and lastly 26 mile rides. A few random rides in other areas increased either my distance (42miles max) or average speed (one time 34 miles at 12mph including stops)

All the above happened over a course of 5 months of 3 to 6 rides per week.

Hehe - now, one shoulder surgery, and one new hip later, I am on a recumbent trike, and starting completely over again (but loving it).

Sorry for the long post, I tend to write books it seems...

Peter_C

What he said~!

chasm54

PeterC:

With regard to the aero vs weight, of course you are correct that the slower you go, the less air resistance makes a difference. And I absolutely agree that it is much more important to be comfortable on the bike than to contort yourself into an aero position you can't sustain. Even TdF riders would agree. Cadel Evans looks terrible on a TT bike, and I have no doubt that he has been in wind tunnels etc., so he must be making a compromise between being aerodynamic and staying in a position that is comfortable enough to allow him to put out his full power. And he is definitely going faster than you, or me.

Mine was a comment in passing, really. Lots of big riders think they can't be fast on the flat because of their weight. They can. It's in the hills that their weight really disadvantages them. But none of this has much to do with the cadence debate.

Peter_C

Never a worry Mostly, I wanted to make sure *my* info wasn't somehow wrong, or out of context. Being self-taught is great, the only issue is you never know what you DON'T know~!

Cheers!

monkeydentity

Thanks for the advice! above 70 huh, yikes. I was using the hill to toughen up, my idea was that I wouldn't drop below 2-1. It's just one nasty hill that I've gotten into the habit of mashing....I could shift lower, though if I go much slower I might just fall over! I'll try a 10mi ride soon with the goal of stating between 65 and 75 and report back.

thanks again all who are contributing!

chefisaac

sorry for the stupid question...... but does candence refer to the peddling, yes? So a higher cadence, the more peddling you are doing and doing it in a higher gear? And a lower candence, less pedding, and usually done at lower gears?

RollCNY

Cadence is crank revolutions per minute, regardless of gear selection. Higher cadence is more crank rpm, lower is fewer.

jethro56 

a cadence of 80 means 80 complete revolutions of the crank in a minute.

chefisaac

so basically it doesnt matter what gear you are in. You can have a high cadence in a low gear and vice versa.

Peter_C

Cadence = RPM = how fast you are pedaling = right foot at 6 o'clock 50 times in one minute is a cadence of 50, or, 50RPM.

Cadence has not a lot to do with the gear you are in. The idea is you try to keep your cadence the same (whether it's 70, 80, 90, etc), and if you want to go faster, you shift into a bigger/taller gear while keeping your cadence the same. If you have a headwind, or want to go slower, or are pedaling uphill, instead of pedaling slower (lowering your cadence or RPM), you try to keep pedaling at the same RPM (or cadence) while shifting to a lower/smaller gear.

Think of a car, you have a 'tach', it shows the RPM of the engine right? If it's a manual transmission, you know that you can only go so fast, or so slow in 2nd gear, right? If the RPMs get too high, you must either upshift into third, or blow up the motor - get it? If the car has an automatic tranny, you will see the car shift up or down while trying to keep the RPMs down low.

Well, on a bicycle, you *could* pedal at a cadence of '5' if you wanted - that meaning the pedals due a full circle 5 times in a minute - dumb, right? So, we have a 'base' cadence, which is how slow you can pedal (with force) without hurting yourself in time, some people will say '50'RPM/cadence, but it has been proven that if you want to protect your knees, the magic number is '70'RPM/cadence.

What about an upper limit? That really depends on training, and your personal fitness/health level. I personally am most comfortable with a cadence of 75 to 85. Anything over 85, and I start bouncing too much.

To confuse you even more, the word *mashing* has two parts! #1 is pedaling slowly (under 70RPM), #2 is pedaling HARD! Or pedaling with much force! You can pedal hard, if you stay above 70RPM, and, you can pedal slower than 70RPM if you are *NOT* pedaling hard.

Example, I am riding with my wife, on level ground, no wind, and she is setting the pace at like 7-8mph which is very easy for me. Also instead of spinning at 70 or higher, since I am just goofing and following her, I might coast, be in a higher gear at a cadence of 50-60RPM, but it's OK because I am almost coasting...

Someone told me, and it was written earlier on this thread - when going uphill, if you legs are tired, downshift and pedal faster, if you are getting winded, you're pedaling too fast, so you should upshift and pedal slower. If you legs are tired, AND, you are out of breath - you're like me, and should stop and rest

chefisaac

great post peter! thank you.

Peter_C

A small bit to add?

Racer-type riders do it differently. *I* would call them 'mashers', as they try hard to stay in a big gear all the time - but, their health/fitness level tends to be much better than say mine for example.

Without getting too deep into how knees work, you have a set of muscles roughly just above the knee-cap called 'quads'. Basically (very simplified) the stronger (more built up) those muscles are, combined with good knee health, the better those knees can handle hard pushing.

I have "Osteoarthritis" is most joints at this point in my life, combined with 40 odd years of too much weight, so my right knee (only one surgery) is bout one step from needing replacement (left knee replaced 11-09, surgery #8). So - I tend to be both rather up-to-date on how to hurt a knee, and very paranoid about doing so. Roller skate - never again - and so on...

There are many members that have read this thread, that are not worried in the slightest about possible knee damage. Some because they don't think it will happen to them, so because they have great knee health and know it, some that have had damage occur - everyone must decide for themselves.

Add to it that my second most important reason for riding is cardio health, and a good cadence helps right there.

radshark

Me too until I started using a trainer a few winters ago. It forces you to be smoother. I really improved my pedaling smoothness by using one. Now I prefer to spin about 90-95.

RandoneeRider

Went out again yesterday and today, thinking about this thread, and spinning at or above 80.
I was surprised to see that this has NOT been at the expense of my speed (in fact my average speed bumped up from 12.3 to 13mph), and though it would be misleading to say it's easier..... it IS INDEED easier on my right knee. I (personally) have benefitted from this thread, understanding only half of what has been explained, but a higher cadence matched to the correct gear ratio is working for me!

chasm54

Good. This is exactly what one would expect. It shouldn't be easier - you're going faster, and that obviously requires more power, and therefore more energy, than going slower - but it should transfer some of the load from legs to heart and lungs - hence less strain on the knee.

Don't get too obsessive about this. Remember the demented hamster and proceed gradually.

IAmCosmo

And, racers can spin that big gear at the same cadence I struggle to spin my smaller gear...

Mithrandir

I have a physics book dedicated to cycling, really fascinating stuff. I think it pegs the speed at which aerodynamics becomes significant is around 12mph. I'm going to have to go back and verify that figure to be sure though (at work, book isn't handy at the moment).

kevrider

pls post the book info, if you don't mind.

monkeydentity

+1


also, today tried keeping my cadence above 70, no matter what. Went well, 3 mph faster up the big hill! even passed a masher who zoomed by me on the flat area before the hill

CJ C

I would like to give all you guys two thumbs down and a full on blaaaaaaaaaaah.

because of this tread i need to get rid of my $10 bell computer and buy a fancy computer that does cadence and while i am at it just get a all in one cadence/hr/and other stuff.

so thanks guys/gals i now will have an accessory on my bike that cost more than my bike

jethro56 

I'm with you. Now I have to get shoes/clips/first aid kit/pain killers and a hampster jersey.

monkeydentity

chasm54

No, you don't. The beat of the BeeGees "Staying Alive" (I know, it's truly terrible) is a cadence of 100. Sing it to yourself. You'll go insane, but your pedalling will be perfect.