contango 

Forgot to say, make sure you eat and drink enough. My ongoing issue is I forget to drink enough water, then start to struggle with cramps and general muscle fatigue.

Null66

CONGRATS!
I'm no where near your conditioning... But rapidly improving.
Do you have a workout or ride log? It would be VERY helpful, even if it is from when you were more advanced...



I spin out at a bit over 30, given the length and climb I probably won't pedal over 20-ish... No use burning up energy just to go a little faster for a short ways...

Fuel and hydration, well, I know what I should do... I just rarely do it right!... Tend to drink too little and not eat soon enough. I'm in bad enough shape that I should be trying to have calories seeping in from the start...

Hydration:
Playing around with baking soda and lemon for my camelback. Worked great today, though needed a qood bit more lemon. It provide sodium, and buffer acidification of blood which given I'm effected by gout. Gout can easily be a game ender... On the plus side it makes me thirsty which makes me drink. Downside it seems to blunt hunger... Drinking enough to force frequent bio breaks is good for the gout... So that's a goal I haven't really achieved yet.

Fuel:
I'll use perpeteum and scale per my weight per directions. But just in case, I will also try and eat real food sufficient for the miles. Doesn't matter is I'm over supplied with calories (as long as I don't puke too badly)...

Controls:
The times are irrelevant to the goals for this attempt. I'll carry enough batteries to last most the night and emergency spare besides... If it turns into a tour type ride, so be it. Starting and ending are the objectives...

Null66

Today's ride with my delicious SO!
Beautiful day, with demon winds...

Summary
Distance: 33.42 mi
Time: 3:08:47
Avg Speed: 10.6 mph
Elevation Gain: 1,667 ft
Calories: 1,342 C
Avg Temperature: 71.6 °F
Details
Timing
Time: 3:08:47
Moving Time: 3:06:27
Elapsed Time: 4:22:37
Avg Speed: 10.6 mph
Avg Moving Speed: 10.8 mph
Max Speed: 34.3 mph
SpeedPace
Elevation
Elevation Gain: 1,667 ft
Elevation Loss: 1,578 ft
Min Elevation: 114 ft
Max Elevation: 502 ft
Heart Rate
Avg HR: 121 bpm
Max HR: 147 bpm
Zones% of Maxbpm
Cadence
Avg Bike Cadence: 73 rpm
Max Bike Cadence: 115 rpm

lopek77

Sorry, it may and probably will sound little silly, but what is "200k"? I know some of m friends do "3k", "4k" and so on, but I never really asked about that. "K" sounds like 1000....1000 of what?

Homeyba

Do be careful with too many calories. That's just as bad as not enough, maybe worse than not enough. In fact I've DNF'd because of too many calories and never from not enough. If you are puking, your body is telling you something and it will have a profound effect on your performance. Pay attention to what your body is telling you.

Homeyba

200k as in 200 kilometers or 124 miles+/- for the metrically challenged. Not that far.

lopek77

So it should be 200km instead of 200k. "K" has nothing to do with kilometre. That must be a reason why I was confused by that. So another question should be why is it called the wrong way? lol

Homeyba

That is just the common terminology used in the randonneuring community. They use those terms in Europe so it just got copied here. The rides are called 200k, 300k, 400k, 600k and 1200k. I've been riding brevets since the early 90's and that's what they called them then and they were doing it for many, many years before that. I doubt they'll change what they call them, no matter how right or wrong it is.

WonderMonkey

Fun thread. I'm paying attention and learning things. I have some rehydrate items if you are interested. Also something to help your morning rides and eating before.

WonderMonkey

For some of us that is quite far!

Homeyba

Ohh, it's all between your ears. Long distance riding is 90% mental. If you don't look at it as far it isn't so far.

WonderMonkey

Tell my rump and legs that!

I did a 100 miler last year before I was properly conditioned for it. I do know that most of use here can do the distance if enough time is spent properly preparing. I also believe that you have to be in "good enough" shape before doing any distance no matter what you tel your mind. "Good enough" is relative to the distance.

I've also got a 200 mile weekend and a 200 mile day planned for later this year. I won't try the 200 mile day if I haven't progressed "enough" but in the end I know it will be my mental abilities which will allow me to complete it.

WonderMonkey

Still quite far though.

contango 

I don't really keep workout logs as such. I have logged a lot of rides on fitocracy (www.fitocracy.com) but today's was the first one this year I bothered to log.


For a brevet your minimum overall average speed is usually 15kph (BPs are sometimes lower, but a 200 will be BR or maybe BRM). I try and maintain an overall average of 20kph, and accept that towards the end of a 200 (especially if it's hilly) my average will start to drop. If I can maintain a higher average during the first part of the ride it gives me a bit more time in hand in case there are nasty surprises later on. I don't bother spinning out at all - if I'm going down a big hill and gravity gives me 30-40kph I'll just be happy with that and conserve some energy for later. On the flats I may pedal about 30kph, generally won't push harder than that because it just means I'm more likely to have issues later.

Knowing what to do doesn't help unless you actually do it! Yesterday after I'd done the 20 miles to the start I should have taken on some water but figured I'd be OK. Then at the half way control I should have taken a little more time and taken on more water but didn't. The upshot of all this was that I did 92 miles with only three water bottles. I was still going, but I'd have been in much better shape had I drunk more. Then during the 20 miles home I drank most of another two bottles, and by the time I got home I was quite badly dehydrated. Between getting home and going to bed I probably drank another 3-4 pints of water.

If you eat too much you will pay the price. Some randonneurs find that over a long ride there are some things they crave and some things they just can't cope with. I've nearly had to abandon a ride because I ate the wrong thing and it gave me so much gas I felt like a balloon perched atop a saddle.

Keep within the times if you can - your minimum speed works out to only 9mph which isn't all that fast. If you're likely to be pushing the limits of the time think in terms of efficiency at the controls. If you take things like flapjacks with you, it gives you options. If you get to a control where you don't have to wait for food, buy a spare flapjack or two. That way if you have a control with very slow service you can just get your stamp and go, and you still have food to eat later. If you desperately need food or water and there's a huge wait, that could make the difference between making it and running out of time. (I know finishing at all counts as "making it", but it would be good to finish within time if you can).

Weatherby

Looking at the data and comments from NULL66......

With an indicated HRmax of seemingly under 150BPM and not knowing your age or resting heart rate or, is it possible that most of your rides are done at too high an exertion level and at too short a distance? I would suspect a range of 100-112 BPM might be better on the long rides. It looks like all of the rides are in no-mans land. Short and not in a zone that will do much for you.

If I were you, I would be working on training my body to burn fat by riding twice per week at longer distances at slower speeds than what your current ride data is showing. It looks like you have sufficient training and experience to add one hill interval (or a flat TT one) ride per week to build power and speed. The other 2-3 rides should be pure recovery rides where you feel like you are cheating.....probably riding at around 105 BPM for an hour or two. Do you really need to be eating on these relatively short rides and what is the benefit to doing so? Try to increase your longest ride each and every week by 10-15% or so and use that ride to learn about eating and drinking on the bike. You have to get that 32 mile long ride closer to 80 miles. If I read correctly, your longest ride was 33 miles and it took about 4:20 of which about 3:05 was riding. Try to get this long ride to 80 miles with more like 8 hours total inlcuding all rests......if you can't? I wouldn't attempt the 200K. I am in a similar situation in terms of fitness. I was hoping to do a 200K on 3/22 that has almost 10,000 climbing. My longest ride was this weekend, I did 62 miles, which is my longest ride in over 15 years. In total I did 120 miles Fri-Sun. There is a nasty, wicked hill at about 115 miles on this 200K. I used climb it no problem. I rode it Saturday on my 62 mile training ride and don't think I could climb at that late in the game. It is about 1 mile long and averages 12% with center gut punch of around 15%.

If you think you can do it, be bold. But.......looking at the training data........you are not riding long enough on the long days. This is just my opinion. This is not professional advice or medical advice. Could be wrong.

On the 200k, bring enough food to make it to a control in the 70-80 mile range and ride in zone one; stop and eat a good meal and have a bit of a rest. At all the other controls, just fill the bottles and get out of Dodge rolling our slowing and eating as you go. YMMV.

contango 

Here's a link to a training program intended to train for 100k ride. Presumably if you more or less double the numbers you'll get something for a 200k

https://www.avantiplus.co.nz/pluszone...-training.html

In terms of what you can do, if you're riding with a group the chances are you can add 50% to your normal comfortable distance. So if you can do 100k reasonably comfortably, on the day of an event you can probably do 150k. You might get away with more, just don't get into thinking that because you've never done more than 100k you can't do a longer event.

contango 

Another thought - if you know there's a huge hill right after a control you may find it to be an effective use of time to get some food "to go" from the control and walk up the hill while eating the food.

If you're likely to be walking the hill anyway, or are unlikely to be able to cycle up it any faster than walking it, you might as well use the slow time to take on some food and water rather than sitting at the control eating and drinking (i.e. going at 0 mph) only to then go slowly up the hill. It may not be an issue if you've got time in hand but might save you some precious time if you are close to the cutoff.

Null66

Very I Interestes!
I obsessively study, first one thing then another...
All information is good. Currently, I've liked:
https://osmonutrition.com/
as input.
Speaks about buffering the blood from metabolic byproducts, seems directly related to reducing / managing gout.

It's like 9.6. I run about 11-12 on 30+ mile rides, climbing kills me. I intend to start slow, avoid approaching target HR... I got the low gears to climb a wall My bike build has The Blue Ridge Parkway loaded on the "someday list". It does mean I sacrificed top gears, but I'd rather have an extra down low then up high... For long rides I usually set a target average speed and only recovery pedal, if much above that... recovery pedal: shift into really high gear, cadence < 60 but put little to no torque on it. This helps the heart move blood and helps legs with circulation. I think I got that from Davidson...

I'm learning to watch HR to not blow out... I have very little swing, just getting on the bike HR goes to 90+, seems like in current conditioning I need to stay < 128 for infinitely sustainable ride. But when I eat, it adds 10 to baseline, and curve goes up. As I tire, base and curve goes up... Once I exceed 128 it gets easy to hit 130's and the more I exceed target the faster and further I exceed target...

Thanks for acknowlegeing the know better but did it anyway's! That helps a lot!

I'm 47, almost 48, 6' 265 recreational lifter, flirting with the dark side. Last year's maxes, DL 575, free Squat 2x550, Machine squat 819, machine MP 350, Machine decline bench 5x5x450 as that's the machine's max with 45lb plates. I will never compete, as I have too many injuries and 1 in particular would have to be fixed to bench press and that's a 2 year recovery. I'm also IT / dotcomm survivor, no stranger to 100+ hour weeks or 40 hour days... I won't work like that anymore, too caustic to health!

I Would love to do longer distances. It is what I enjoy most! The weather has negated that, COld and gout just don't get along. I'm collecting cold weather gear... But one bad decision in this regard and I'm off the bike for a week at least. So that leaves indoor interval training as the majority of what's possible. I get in rides when I can with SO, again weather limited. One solo ride, I had not recovered from intervals enough to hit planned mileage, so did 30 instead.

Training and my relationship with hills is why I am not concerned with making controls at this point. At touring speed, all mileage is possible!


Thanks!
I doubt anyone will be riding at my pace. At my size, I'm hell on wheels downhill, and just in hell on the uphill.

I like idea of still moving while eating/recovering. Anytime you can replace a 0 with non-0 is a good way to up the average!

WonderMonkey

Thanks for the link. I haven't read it yet but will later tonight.

Weatherby

Riding three days per week as recommended in this link will not increase fitness.

If you are already fit, it only takes 4 rides per week to maintain fitness.

5-6 rides per week is needed for improvement with moderation and consistency being keys to improvement. Too much quality too soon is the kiss of death.


There is tons of research on this.

WonderMonkey

The word "fitness" may be the key here but I was able to go from nothing to a 100k to a 100 miler riding 3 days a week on average. Each of my outings were used to build and push myself and not just plod along though.

I will say that I think it would have been FAR FAR better to have done a minimum of 4 days a week but schedule would not allow it. I just tried to get the most out of the days I did get on the bike.

Null66

Lifting taught me a few things.
Everyone's recovery requirements are different. A person's recovery requirements can vary greatly even in the short run.
Also the less fit, the greater the need for recovery and usually the less recovery people will allow themselves.

Intensity trumps duration or frequency for the most part...

WonderMonkey

Agreed. It's been a while since I've seriously lifted but I did used to play sports for a living for a bit then "kind of" did for a while longer. After that I got into powerlifting and then family life and that's when Mr. ****** showed up. I learned to start my recovery even before the activity started, etc. Last year around this time I got onto some recover products that blew my mind and I was able to go harder on the days I had available and recover faster.

Null66

My downfalls were 100 hour weeks, and more 100 hour weeks, even a couple 100 hour days and a very, very, bad marriage...

Homeyba

If your rear hurts, your fit isn't right or you need a different seat. If your legs are sore you slow down a bit and keep going. You can pedal through that. It's all in your head.
The difference between a successful long distance rider and and unsuccessful one is that the successful one knows that he/she can ride through most difficulties and get to the finish. The unsuccessful one quits because he/she thinks it's too hard. I know a guy who completed a 1200km (750miles) event in less than 90hrs having only been on a bike 4 times in the previous year just to do the qualifying rides. I was off the bike because of an illness for almost 9 months and my first ride was a century. Not a big deal. I was slower than a slug but I finished and had a great time.

Training is important in that it makes it easier and faster. It doesn't make it possible (assuming you have some kind of reasonable fitness level).