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-   -   Right Turn on Red (https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/1011440-right-turn-red.html)

Ray Lovinggood 06-01-15 01:29 PM

More info from the OP...

The road is two lane curb and gutter, with one east-bound and one west-bound lanes. There are no right turn lanes. There are no center turn lanes. Just two lanes. The lanes are not standard 12' width and appear to be 10' in width. The stop bar (12" wide painted white line) is near the crossing traffic lanes, not pulled back from the intersection.

There is no room to move to the right of the lane to allow a car to go around my left side then turn right in front of me.

There is no room to move to the left of the lane and allow the car to go around my right side, unless the driver drives up onto the sidewalk.

I can't pull ahead of the white stop bar because cars making a left turn in front of me would run me over. They come pretty close as it is right now, and I'm behind the stop bar.

So, there's nowhere for me to go, except onto the adjacent sidewalk, or the adjacent lane, which would put me in a place to get plowed over by oncoming traffic.

I'm not going on the sidewalk.

Any traffic behind me will just have to wait, the same as I'm doing.

RubeRad 06-01-15 01:41 PM

Cars are not 10 feet wide, if you move to the left side of the lane there should be room for a right turn.


If I had the time, I would ask them if they would ask a driver of a car to move over so they can make the right on red
Yes, quite often in my car I wish I had a CB so I could ask some thoughtless driver if they could use some of the gap in front of them to skooch a couple feet left so I could turn right (same for trying to get into a left turn lane). And very often if I am driving and see somebody coming up behind that can't get by me to turn right, I try to move forward and left if I can, to let them by, or think ahead and get leftward in my lane as I come to a stop to make room for anybody that might want to get by.

It's just polite. There are times to stand your ground and agitate for cyclists' rights, but don't be a d1ck, it's bad for the rest of us.

jfowler85 06-01-15 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by Mr IGH (Post 17855451)
If there's a right turn lane I don't use it if I'm not taking a right. In that case I'd be in the through lane, in the middle, holding cars back until I've cleared the intersection and it's safe to pass. I move in traffic as if I'm a slow moving vehile, that's the law....

So the answer to my question is no..? I am not insinuating that you are using the right turn lane (although it's not unreasonable to rest on the curb there), I am asking to clarify as to where exactly in the lane you are sitting when the right-turner behind you becomes impatient.

jfowler85 06-01-15 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by Ray Lovinggood (Post 17856360)
More info from the OP...

The road is two lane curb and gutter, with one east-bound and one west-bound lanes. There are no right turn lanes. There are no center turn lanes. Just two lanes. The lanes are not standard 12' width and appear to be 10' in width. The stop bar (12" wide painted white line) is near the crossing traffic lanes, not pulled back from the intersection.

There is no room to move to the right of the lane to allow a car to go around my left side then turn right in front of me.

There is no room to move to the left of the lane and allow the car to go around my right side, unless the driver drives up onto the sidewalk.

I can't pull ahead of the white stop bar because cars making a left turn in front of me would run me over. They come pretty close as it is right now, and I'm behind the stop bar.

So, there's nowhere for me to go, except onto the adjacent sidewalk, or the adjacent lane, which would put me in a place to get plowed over by oncoming traffic.

I'm not going on the sidewalk.

Any traffic behind me will just have to wait, the same as I'm doing.

You don't have to pull out into the intersection, just at the corner of the first car is adequate. No one is going to run you over then because they would also be plowing into the wait car as well.

FBinNY 06-01-15 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by Ray Lovinggood (Post 17855115)
A couple of times, I've had a car driver behind me at a signalized intersection ask me to move over so they can make the right turn on red.

I always refuse. If I had the time, ......

I don't get it. Why do you always refuse. It's no skin off your nose to accommodate someone even if you have no obligation to do so.

I understand why you might sometimes refuse, but always refusing means you either have a bug up your rear end, or are just a jerk.

spare_wheel 06-01-15 02:24 PM

I see no reason to not let them through if there's room to do so safely. In fact, I almost always position myself to the left at a red so that cars can turn right if they need to. Of course, being on the left frequently involves jumping the line which is probably even more controversial on this VC-centric forum.

Mr IGH 06-01-15 02:24 PM


Originally Posted by jfowler85 (Post 17856432)
So the answer to my question is no..? I am not insinuating that you are using the right turn lane (although it's not unreasonable to rest on the curb there), I am asking to clarify as to where exactly in the lane you are sitting when the right-turner behind you becomes impatient.

I'm in the rightmost lane and there isn't a right turn lane. Could be a single lane or two lanes but no right turn lane. In the Chicago area it's a big deal and once or twice a month a driver would honk or yell. Out here in Longmont folks just wait their turn.

spare_wheel 06-01-15 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 17856400)
It's just polite. There are times to stand your ground and agitate for cyclists' rights, but don't be a d1ck, it's bad for the rest of us.

Just because someone could move out of the way does not make them a d1ck for not doing so. Moreover, some people may not be comfortable edging further out into traffic.

robert schlatte 06-01-15 02:36 PM

I move to the left to allow the right on red turn of the car behind me. However, if there is no room as you have stated, then that's your answer.

RubeRad 06-01-15 02:38 PM

Whenever I'm driving and am caught behind someone who has an ample gap in front of them and won't make any attempt to make room for me, I consider them a d1ck.

I have never been held up in my car by a cyclist who refused to make room, because I don't drive so much, and cyclists are not too frequent. But as a cyclist I often make way for behind-right-turners, because if I didn't I would feel like a d1ck. My goals when cycling are to: 1. not die 2. get where I'm going 3. communicate to cars that I (and by implication other cyclists) am willing to hold up my end of the social contract of Sharing the road. I.e. not be a d1ck.

rmfnla 06-01-15 03:03 PM


Originally Posted by jimincalif (Post 17855734)
If I'm going to be stopping at the light, I move to the center of the right-most thru lane. This leaves the right clear for right turners, avoids putting me in a position to get right hooked, and when the light turns green I move to the right as I ride thru the intersection (after a quick glance over my right shoulder) so the straight thru cars can pass me.

If there are already cars stopped at the intersection I will take my place in line behind the cars going straight. Again, right in the center of the lane so that motorists don't try to pass me and so that right turners see that I am well clear of their path.

Try it some time, I've never been honked at for this maneuver, and I've never been buzzed by a car from behind. There is nothing to be gained for cyclists by getting drivers upset. In fact this does the opposite as they see I am obviously trying to not obstruct them. We are trying to get more of our club members to ride this way.

If there is a right-turn lane I stop between it and the through lane but in front of the stop line. This gives them plenty of room to make their turn without putting me in any danger.

As for rude cyclists, I drive a car too, so I can empathize with both sides of this topic.

Perhaps if more people tried to do that traffic would be a bit easier regardless of one's mode of transportation...

CrankyOne 06-01-15 03:10 PM

There are a couple of intersections where I face this and I usually get in the left tire track which gives most cars plenty of room to make their right turns.

That said RIGHT ON RED IS EXCEPTIONALLY DANGEROUS! There is a reason it has been outlawed throughout Europe (and elsewhere). As well, European traffic engineers have significantly reduced the radius of curbs at intersections to force drivers to slow down when they turn.

Leisesturm 06-01-15 04:12 PM


Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 17855831)
I always pull as far forward as I can, like to the front of the crosswalk, while remaining about in line with the painted bike lane. That far forward, there is always room for people to right turn behind me, because the curb curves away well before it gets up to me. Still, I more often find timid drivers waiting, and I try to wave them through, let them know, yes I see you, yes I'm fine with you going through, thanks for thinking of me.

They aren't timid, they don't understand what you have done. If you want to make it more clear then the thing to do is stop well short of the intersection. Like two or three car lengths short. Cars will pass by you and make the right turn at the intersection knowing that you don't want to turn right. Anything else will confuse them. At least they wait. On the east coast someone might shoot you.

jimincalif 06-01-15 04:13 PM


Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 17856567)
My goals when cycling are to: 1. not die 2. get where I'm going 3. communicate to cars that I (and by implication other cyclists) am willing to hold up my end of the social contract of Sharing the road. I.e. not be a d1ck.

Good philosophy and nicely stated!

RubeRad 06-01-15 04:25 PM


Originally Posted by Leisesturm (Post 17856877)
They aren't timid, they don't understand what you have done. If you want to make it more clear then the thing to do is stop well short of the intersection. Like two or three car lengths short. Cars will pass by you and make the right turn at the intersection knowing that you don't want to turn right. Anything else will confuse them. At least they wait. On the east coast someone might shoot you.

I use my hand and 'c'mon' to try to wave them through, some do, some don't. I'll give the wave once or twice, but if I've given them room and they don't go, I don't go crazy about it.

RubeRad 06-01-15 04:25 PM


Originally Posted by jimincalif (Post 17856882)
Good philosophy and nicely stated!

So far, I've done pretty good at 1 and 2 at least!

treadtread 06-01-15 04:37 PM


Originally Posted by caloso (Post 17855910)
I also set up on the left side of the right turn lane. It's safer, more efficient, and as a bonus, looks like you are doing a courtesy to right-turning drivers.

This. Also, as I learned the hard way, some cars will just right hook you anyway if you are hugging the curb on the right. What Caloso said helps me, as well as the car that wants to turn right.

ClarkinHawaii 06-01-15 09:25 PM

Cycling is no different from any other aspect of life--I try to do unto others as I would like them to do unto me. Why act like an ass when with minimal effort you can be Mr. Nice Guy? Karma--what goes around comes around.

MAK 06-01-15 10:06 PM

Proper cycling dictates that you position yourself at the far right of the lane you will be proceeding in. So either way, you should either be stopped by the curb to the right or on or near the "line" between the turning lane and the thru lane, not in the middle of the lane.

I can't speak for other riders states but generally the "take the lane" right is when it is necessary for the cyclists safety, not for general riding.

I firmly believe that people like the OP end up hurting cycling in general and could lead to anti-bicycle road rage causing problems not only for themselves but also for other riders. A bicycle is not a car and even in states that recognize a bike as a vehicle, it still usually doesn't get the exact same rights as cars. Here in Delaware, bikes are considered vehicles, but still can't travel on certain highways and bridges. I can take the lane only when necessary.

Law and rights aside, the bottom line is that you're on a +/-20 lb. piece of carbon, aluminum, titanium or steel. They are in 3000-4000 lb. vehicles. Ultimately it's like taking a knife to a gunfight. The "I'm a cyclist and I have rights" is silly. Change have to had and it will make a great slogan for a tombstone someday.

ClarkinHawaii 06-01-15 10:10 PM


Originally Posted by MAK (Post 17857746)
The "I'm a cyclist and I have rights" is silly. Change have to had and it will make a great slogan for a tombstone someday.

HAHA--So true!

a1penguin 06-01-15 11:36 PM

Another +1 to pulling forward and to the left to allow cars to make a right hand turn behind me. If it doesn't put me at additional risk, why not be courteous to drivers? If I were driving, I would appreciate it. Some light cycles are two minutes!

San Pedro 06-02-15 12:18 AM

I'm glad that at the vast majority of roads here in Japan cars are not allowed to turn left on red lights (opposite side of the road). I don't have to worry about holding up some salary man. Still get the people who start to signal as they turn...

Mr IGH 06-02-15 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by a1penguin (Post 17857858)
Some light cycles are two minutes!

Oh, the humanity! What is the big deal about having to wait? If I was in my car they'd have to wait. I'm on my bike, so the cager has to wait, boo hoo! I'm not risking my life for a global warming gas spewing asshat's convenience.

jfowler85 06-02-15 08:12 AM


Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 17856567)
Whenever I'm driving and am caught behind someone who has an ample gap in front of them and won't make any attempt to make room for me, I consider them a d1ck.

And the person in front of you considers you a dick because you can't wait 30 seconds to sit your impatient ass in line and wait for the light to change. It is the responsibility of the person in front of you to neither accommodate you nor make sure you get to your destination 30 seconds earlier.

mapeiboy 06-02-15 08:23 AM

I usually stop about 50 feet from the intersection when the light is red to avoid this type of situation .

RubeRad 06-02-15 08:23 AM


Originally Posted by Mr IGH (Post 17858317)
Oh, the humanity! What is the big deal about having to wait? If I was in my car they'd have to wait. I'm on my bike, so the cager has to wait, boo hoo! I'm not risking my life for a global warming gas spewing asshat's convenience.

So you would rather the global warming gas spewing asshat sit at the light longer and spew more gas and warm more globe?

FBinNY 06-02-15 08:24 AM


Originally Posted by jfowler85 (Post 17858448)
And the person in front of you considers you a dick because you can't wait 30 seconds to sit your impatient ass in line and wait for the light to change. It is the responsibility of the person in front of you to neither accommodate you nor make sure you get to your destination 30 seconds earlier.

I hope this is just a question of poor phrasing, and the intent is that no one has an obligation to accommodate you and not that we have a responsibility to be willfully spiteful all the time.

It's interesting how social attitudes change when cars are involved. If you're standing in a line that runs past a door, and someone comes by wanting to enter, he gives you the nod, or says "excuse me" and people adjust so he can get past. Failure to do so would brand one as a jerk. But get into cars, and some take the attitude of "screw you, why should I have to do you the grand favor of moving a few feet so you can get by".

RubeRad 06-02-15 08:25 AM


Originally Posted by jfowler85 (Post 17858448)
And the person in front of you considers you a dick because you can't wait 30 seconds to sit your impatient ass in line and wait for the light to change. It is the responsibility of the person in front of you to neither accommodate you nor make sure you get to your destination 30 seconds earlier.

The person in front of me I'm sure is 99% of the time completely unaware of me, which is the problem. And for blocking left-turn lanes it's not a question of just waiting for the light to change, it's a question of, can I make this light cycle, or do I have to wait for the next light cycle

jfowler85 06-02-15 08:39 AM


Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 17858481)
The person in front of me I'm sure is 99% of the time completely unaware of me, which is the problem. And for blocking left-turn lanes it's not a question of just waiting for the light to change, it's a question of, can I make this light cycle, or do I have to wait for the next light cycle

Ah man, I expected an argument out of this, good on you. I suspect you are right on count 1, on count 2 you are also right but the context of the discussion is turning right. If the person blocking you from turning right is honestly not aware that you are behind them, do you really consider that person a dick?

FBinNY 06-02-15 08:45 AM


Originally Posted by jfowler85 (Post 17858530)
.... If the person blocking you from turning right is honestly not aware that you are behind them, do you really consider that person a dick?

If a person stops with plenty of rom forward in such a way as to restrict folks behind from passing into a turn lane, I put them into the same category as folks who stand at the bottom of escalators, or have conversations near doorways. Not jerks, but situationally unaware. OTOH - refusing to move if asked makes them jerks.


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