Depends. If it's a minivan with a mom trying to handle some rowdy kids or something, then she's got other stuff going on. If it's (more likely nowadays) somebody texting, and likely to not notice when the light changes anyways, yes. (Although I guess better to be oblivious when stopped than when driving...)

Yes.


I hope this is just a question of poor sentence structure.

You are comparing two very different contexts, i.e. on instance occurs with those involved inside vehicles and the other they are not. People don't need to be polite on the road, they need to follow the rules and realize that even if they were to get ahead by 1 minute at intersection a, they will probably just end up stopping at intersection b or c, so the extra time gained is for naught.

At a busy 3 or 4 way intersection, things can get hairy when some joker starts waiving people through out-of-turn. When I am involved, I put my foot on the ground and make sure that those ahead of me go ahead of me. It is not the responsibility of the first arriver at that intersection to accommodate anyone, it is his job to follow the rules. Just like the person waiting at the head of the right turn lane; it is not his responsibility to accommodate anyone, it is his job to follow the rules. Things tend to work smoothly when people just shut up and follow the rules.

in NYC there is no right on red, it's not allowed. there's a space between the cars going straight and the crosswalk that cyclists can move into. they are directly in front of cars going straight and have right of way once the light turns green. in general, we try not to get left hooked or right hooked, there's a "mixing zone" we share with cars to avoid that. but if the lane is on the right, there is usually no safe place to move - no car has ever asked me to move and if they did i would probably say no, there's typically no safe way of executing such a move. they usually yield and wait for me to go before making their right turn. hope this helps clarify what happens in NYC.

This sums up your attitude very succinctly. If you remember the original issue, it related to moving over (or forward) so a car behind you could make a right turn. This isn't a question of unnecessarily stopping to waive someone through an intersection, which I agree might create problems. This is a simple question of extending a fellow road user a courtesy at no expense to yourself or any other road users.

You clearly feel no obligation to do so, and I agree that there's no obligation, but I do so anyway because it's the way I am. Sometimes it's not about finding a reason why, but not finding a reason why not.

That would be stupid anyway.

That would be enough for most passenger cars if you scootch over to the left. If they're so impatient that they want to drive onto the sidewalk to keep going, that's on them.

Whenever possible, I'll not only get to the center or left portion of the rightmost through lane in order to let right-turning cars pass, I'll look back and attempt to wave them through. It costs me nothing.

But there's only so much you can do with some intersections -- I think you set yourself up to look like a dick in this thread by leaving details out of your OP. ;)

If I'm at the front waiting for a light, I'm in the left-hand side of the lane anyway. Sometimes there's room for right-turners, sometimes not. I've never been asked to move over.

... and that attitude right there is part of the problems on today's roads. The fireworks ensue when someone like this gets tangled up with someone else's "F-U, I'll do what I want" attitude. Sometimes leading to tragic results such as Woman Accused of Running Down Navy Chief Petty Officer in Road Rage Killing: CHP | NBC 7 San Diego

And, there's the end of the discussion. If that's the foundation of your (and OP's) approach to cycle-commuting (and shared use of roads in general), then all other 'discussion' of details is merely talking past each other.

You're making my point for me. Were the rules followed? Nope. You are erroneously assuming that I take the opposite end of the argument being made, when in fact I mean to take the middle ground of neutrality. We're talking about commuting here, not philanthropy or altruism, for fook's sake stop all this "well they should be nice to me while I'm riding my bike" and "well I'm nicer to other people on the road than you." Sounds like a little girl's tea party up in here.

Astute observation.

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about them one way or the other, they need to wait their turn. I don't need to take risks to save them a few minutes, sorry....

How is scooting to the left of the same lane while stopped at a red light a risk?

You are assuming I feel that way, although I will grant you that it is an assumption easily made. My comments are in response to those in this thread who express discontent when someone does not let them through.

Let me boil it down for you, because you are having trouble going back through previous posts: it is dumb for you (hypothetical) to get pissed at someone else who doesn't extend you a courtesy when they are under no obligation to do so. Generally, when everyone just shuts up and follows the rules, these things tend to work themselves out. I am guessing that, in intersections with such a design which accommodates this example, the local statues regulating traffic would mandate that drivers do 2 things: 1) not ride the curb and 2) pull all the way up to the front of the intersection when waiting for a light. This would obviously allow a cyclist to pass, and in the case of there being a turning lane, this would give room for those to merge into said turning lane. No courtesies needed if everyone just follows the rules. I say this for purpose of illustration, not to be taken as a literal example.

However, this is all general and hypothetical, written as a response to those who feel entitled to courtesy from everyone else around them on the road; I do not reply these things as a matter of demonstrating my own actions on the road. Since you think I am so against extending courtesy to others, then what the hell was I thinking earlier this week when I pulled over, got out of my vehicle, and jogged across a small parking lot to let a departing car know that he had a very low tire?

When I leave work, I often see a single amputee, wheelchair-bound veteran who, for all intents and purposes lives at the hospital, is usually on his way to have a smoke outside. One of the few enjoyable things he has left in his life. Before the next time I offer to push him out to the smoke shack and give him some friendly conversation like I usually do, you might want to let him know that I'm actually a fraud/******* who doesn't believe in giving courtesy to others.

Extended rear view mirror, errant vehicle driving into cross walk are a few easy ones. *Getting squeezed on the right side from the next car going straight is a common issue.

Again, what's the big deal waiting for the next cycle? BTW, now that I live in a polite community (instead of Chicago) it's never an issue, drivers just wait their turn, as they should.

So much anger. And using such terms conveniently depersonalizes the driver, who could be anybody and in a different setting might be your best friend.

As I've gotten older I've learned that I make myself happier when I am kind and courteous to other people. If I can be nice to someone at no inconvenience to myself, why wouldn't I do so? I do it for me as well as for them.

Peace, out.

Trolling helps me pass time at work

• jfowler85

I think your "people don't need to be polite" statement may have come across differently than you intended; perhaps I am the only one, but I read it as a statement of no need for politeness to other road users. A common example of that attitude is the left-lane-hog plodding along at the speed limit in the fast lane of a multilane highway blocking others from passing. They are focused on "following the rules" in lieu of being polite to those around them.

I do agree that politeness ought not to be taken to the extreme of inconveniencing others and/or sowing confusion and thereby decreasing safety.


Whatever vehicle I'm using, I always figure we're all trying to get somewhere as soon as we can, so let's work together to achieve that goal safely.

IMO- this thread isn't about how someone may react to whether someone extends a non-obigatory courtesy, but about whether one does in the first place. I (for one or many) don't get mad at someone who doesn't do me a favor of any kind. That simply maintains the status quo, so there's no reason to get upset. OTOH - I routinely extend non-obligatory courtesies, as you now say you do, and receive the same in return. It just makes life nicer for everybody.

I treat all my fellow road users as I might treat my aunt (my mother's hypothetical sister, who has a big mouth and enjoys showing up my mother -- "I can't believe how rudely YOUR son treated me....".

As I said earlier, when situations like this occur, I'm more often driven by the question "why not?"

So now that you made a point that you're a nice guy, and that you have no obligation to do so, maybe you'll answer the original question. What if someone at a light asked you to move over so he could slide by and make a legal right on red. The OP said he always refuses, what would you do?



BTW- I might point out that this is the commuter thread, and commuting has unique aspects unlike most cycling. One of those is that we tend to share the road with the same people daily, same bus, police, UPS/Fedex drivers, and many of the same motorists on a regular basis. After 5 years riding the same routes at roughly the same times I know the cops, school crossing guards, and many of the regular drivers I see on my route.

That's an important distinction because it mean I can ride surrounded by friends or enemies. If I stop to fix a flat, people will stop, ask if I'm OK and offer a lift. To show how well a bicycle commuter can be known in his area, when I'm walking, some drivers will slow and ask "where's the bike today?" or something to that effect and offer me a lift.

If they were my friend, they wouldn't mind waiting for my safe passage. Always love when a Cali person puts me on the couch. You live in the land of some of the rudest drivers in the US, mellow out, Dude!

The only time I've been in this situation was sitting a curb where the right lane was also the turning lane for a freeway onramp. Less than 10 seconds before the light changed, a car pulls up behind me and honks. I look back at the driver, who is motioning for me to move; I notice the light is about to change and stay put. Driver gets pissed, moves closer, honks again, light turns green and I go. There was plenty of room to go around me if the driver was really in dire need to go, although the free way was clogged up with rush hour traffic anyway.

When there is no right turn lane, I generally move way up to the front which tends to give enough room for those behind me to turn right. Occasionally, for varied reasons, I sit on the curb which blocks right-turners. Most commonly I am hitting the crosswalk button and a driver pulls up behind me. It's awkward to reposition within the intersection in this circumstance, so there I wait, and overall no gets pissed, although one of those blocked right-turners probably went home, complained to the wife/husband, then got on bf to complain about me being a dick.

;)

Ha, I saw ClarkinHawaii's post, but I didn't notice your .sig until just now -- did you change it for Clark?

I make room if it's safe to do so.

A nicely stated sentiment, FBinNY. I once read a piece of advice on a Forum, that the closer you get to work, the less likely you should cuss out motorists, since it might be a co-worker (or Boss :eek:).

Especially true if on your way to an interview! :eek: Commuter swears at man then meets him a few hours later when he interviews him for a job | Daily Mail Online

This is my POV. I move will to the left and give them room to turn while still holding the lane for when I ride through the intersection. I've received many "Thanks" from drivers. I look at it strengthening the relationship between drivers and riders. Maybe next time that driver comes up on a bike they slow down a little more. If I don't give a little, maybe they squeeze out a rider if the lane is tight instead of waiting till more room is available.

+1

If you make room, drivers learn the lesson "Cyclists (at least some of them) are considerate and do not just clog up 'my' roads". If you don't make room, drivers do not learn the lesson "Oh, I guess I should just wait", instead they learn the lesson "Cyclists are a$$holes that annoy me and slow everybody down". Next time they have to make a judgment call of whether to speed up to turn right in front of a cyclist (or whether their current speed is sufficient to turn right in front of a cyclist), vs slowing down to turn right behind...

I used to be pretty hard nosed when it came to demanding my right to the lane, but I've noticed that good will toward drivers goes a long way, especially if you're on a route where you'll encounter the same drivers every day. If I see a car pull up behind me with its right turn signal on, I'll usually get off my bike, pick it up and move it the four or five feet to the left the car needs to turn. A grateful smile beats a menacing look any day as far as I'm concerned.

Just ignore the fact that it makes things easier for other people. Setting up on the left side of the right-most lane makes it easier and safer for you. You are out of the way of the jerk who is going to try to squeeze past to make a right no matter what, and it removes any ambiguity about whether you're going straight or right. So there, just do it for your own selfish reasons that also just happen to make things safer, more efficient, and spread a little goodwill.

Why is that so stupid? You, the o.p. and others in this thread way overestimate the likelihood of a right hook collision in this type of scenario. There is such a thing as convention, and whether you all want to admit it or not, the convention that prevails in most cities is that cars pass cyclists on their left! Moving to the left side of a lane so cars can pass on your right confuses them, annoys them, angers them. In the best case they simply won't do it. They will simply sit and stare. If that's what you want, fine, but don't think you are helping anyone out when you go against convention.

There are only two kinds of right lane at an intersection: a right turn only lane, and a regular right lane for either straight through or right turn. If it is a right turn only lane and you as cyclist do not intend to turn right, you have no business in that lane, so we don't need to discuss that situation any further. In even liberal cycle friendly cities like Portland, the rule is that cyclists stay to the right of other traffic. When you are at the corner waiting to go straight through you will be at the right side of the lane. If you wave a car by to turn right he will pass by on your left and turn across you while the light is still red. He cannot right hook you unless you are actually forward of the intersection and in the path of crossing traffic. Why would you be there? If he is pulling a long trailer that narrows the distance as he turns you should have noticed that!

I (and others) have also learned to stop a couple of car lengths short of the corner which sends a clear message to traffic in the right lane that you do not intend to turn right and so they should pass you on your left and do what they have to do. It's simple, and works well. Anything else is non-standard and causes confusion. Some cyclists revel in all the confusion, contention and cussedness that they can cause.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I think several safe options have been suggested, and they are likely context specific. At the singularly relevant right/through lane on my commute, it seems best to hug the left, and all of the cars that have passed me to the right on a red seem to agree (and they haven't seemed confused or angry---I can only assume they appreciated getting on their way a little more quickly).