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I can't get the adjustment on the Jamis Citizen 1 to a point where my knees don't feel like they're too far forward of the pedals. I'm 6'2" so I have the seat al the way back and comically high. It's a 23" frame and was going to be my experiment before looking to go for a Rivendell or some thing like that. Ive always commuted on a road bike, still do with my Surly LHT, but I thought the upright thing looked like fun. It is fun, except for the weird, slightly painfull, creaky knee thing. Is it just the way these bikes ride? Is it a muscle adjustment and I just need to get through it?

I've never ridden an upright bike, but I assume that incorrect seat height and big gear ratio would cause knee problems...Make sure your seat height is adjusted properly and try to spin lower gears instead of mashing bigger gears.

No, "upright bikes" are not harder on the knees.

I don't think your knee issues are due to the bars, but you could still try lowering them. (move spacers to above the stem, and/or flip it) It's possible to get pretty much the same position as being on the hoods of drop bars.

I've recently noticed seat position to be quite important for relieving some minor knee pain I was having. If your frame is the correct size for you, and you still feel you need to be further back, you could try a seat post with more set back.

I used to ride an upright bike. I didn't find that it was any harsh on my knees, but what I did find was that being upright wasn't an ideal position for applying maximum power to the pedals. To do this I needed to get my hip further back and decrease the hip angle--dropbar.

It's perhaps the like doing a leg press vs a sissy squat position.

Are you sure this bike is not one size (or more) too small for you?

For me, I've noticed that seat height is the biggest factor in preventing knee pain. A seat positioned too low will stress my knees more than anything else.

The trick with an upright bike is to get a frame that's big enough. If you put the seat up high on a small frame then you're bending over to reach the handlebars, which eliminates the "upright" goal of riding a bike like that.

[MENTION=301469]kenwer[/MENTION] I'm going through the same thing, accustomed to commuting on a road bike with about 4" drop but, just this week, having a more upright position. Something in between your two setups.

My saddle height is exactly the same on both bikes (you might double check that) and reach is similar but it's making me work harder and I feel it in my legs. My guess is the same as yours, that it's a muscle adjustment and we'll get over it in short order. From the different position we're recruiting slightly different muscles for power, and even for balance, and those muscles aren't as trained as what we're used to.

I'm pretty sure I have the right size, I exchanged it from the 21". It's the largest size available. I'm going to try riding the LHT no hands, sitting upright because that's what the Citizen 1 feels like to me. If that's the case and that's just the way upright riding is, than check the For Sale forum for a great deal on a barely used 2015 Jamis a Citizen one. Although I must admit that riding upright really is pleasant from the viewpoint.
Another thing is that it also feels a lot slower, could be the bike though, it's not even close to the top of the line.

The only time I've noticed a potential knee issue while riding an upright bike: When the saddle was too low.

The geometry of upright bikes tends to be less aggressive than road bikes. That's probably why you feel slower on it. That is why Cavendish, etc. don't race on upright bikes.

I had the same issue with my knees. I swapped bikes but due to swapping just the frame the bike became more upright with the old stem and my knees were just killing me especially my right knee, it was so bad at one point I could barely use it to get going from a stoplight. I immediately after changed the position so have a slight bend in my back and all is well now.

For fit purposes I used with knee pain a 50mm stem with a On-One Mary bar and now use the same bar with a 85mm stem, I also slightly adjusted my seat a little more back and put the post down a mm or two. Now I can ride my ogre all day.

I am willing to bet in my case it was a combination of things not just the stem. I also like you was never used to riding in such a upright position. It does help you see better but I did also feel VERY slow, I was passed a lot more in this position and I was also a sail in the wind. I also agree this position in not best for putting down any power, nor did I feel any more balanced it actually felt worse it made my center of gravity seem so high up.

Make sure your front-back saddle position is correct too.

My major upright bike experience is on my bakfiets. So that's heavy as can be, to which I attribute some of my knee pain. But, I definitely have knee pain if I'm taking it for a longer ride, especially when it's loaded with kids and groceries. The seat height seems to be important though. It goes between my 5'6" wife and me at 6'2", and when I'm not thoughtful about resetting the seat well, I hurt more.

On the plus side, with the bakfiets, we're usually stopping all the time for errands, to play, to talk with friends... so I never seem to just ride it straight for 10+ miles.

It could also be the power plant, my legs are a little out of shape. The handlebar does not come back far enough for a true "Dutch-bike" set up, but the quill stem is up pretty high. I have to lean forward a bit which makes the position a bit awkward. I also replaced the marshmallow seat with my Brooks B17, which also requires an odd, slightly upturned position or else it feels like I'm sliding forward.

Adaptation from one bike to another machine with a different position isn't instant, it takes seat time.
That being said a careful fit with the correct seat height, saddle rail position and drop/reach for the design matters.

-Bandera

upright bikes are definitely harder on my lower back.

i've never noticed anything regarding my knees, but i have admittedly limited experience with upright bikers because of said lower back issues.

If the seat tube is actually 23" considering the top tube bends down to meet it , that may be OK .

you have a soft wide saddle and a spring in the seat post that should take care of the road jolts ..

You are in a more upright walking like posture , does your spine hurt after you walk a similar time?


are you starting late and so pushing a big gear to make up time? try leaving earlier so you dont have to rush.

An upright bike should have a different seat tube angle and longer headset than a sport bike. It's sort of hard to tell from your picture, but it looks like that frame wasn't really designed well for upright riding. One clue is the enormous angle on the stem plus a huge rise on the bars needed to bring the handlebars up to an upright level. Hard to tell about the seat tube angle from the picture, just a few degrees make all the difference.

If you are having knee problems, it could very well be that the seat tube is not properly positioning your legs over the cranks in an upright position. Barring adaptation issues, that would be my conclusion.

Bingo.

Different riding positions use different muscles. And the same is true transitioning from an upright bike to a road bike. My first few rides on my road bike in the spring are awful, and I don't ride it enough to fully acclimate to it.

If your saddle and handlebar height are properly adjusted an upright bike should be a fun and pleasant ride.

I enjoy my GT Eightball flat bar road bike and its more comfortable than the drop bar Lemond Zurich road bike I replaced it with.

I think the thing you need to watch is the extension on your leg when you ride for pleasure and exercise. Or commute. (you have all probably all ridden a stationary exercise bike). You do not want your legs fully extended or too far extended on the down stoke. You push with your upper leg muscles and should be able to feel when you have the right extension. Your legs will feel comfortable and should be enjoying the ride.

looks the same position for feet over the pedals (red lines) and about the same seat height (black lines)

if these are the actual bikes. You said you slammed the seat back though, so are these stock photos?

Sheldon has useful input Bicycling and Pain

I recently built up a new utility bike as an upright bike. The frame is big, almost too big for me. I have almost no standover clearance. But the saddle height measurement to the pedal spindle is the same as my (properly fit) road bike. But then I added a stem riser and a bunch of spacers to bring the bars WAYY up. I like it, rides super nice.

I do wish I had gone with a shorter front fork, which would have increased my standover clearance. However it would also make the seat tube angle steeper. I would probably have to switch to a setback seat post if I put on a shorter fork. It looks a little odd but it feels great to ride!

Yes, these are stock photos and the odd thing about the Citizen 1 is that the top tube has an upward curve to it. And as someone else suggested my knees much farther forward than my usual knees over pedals.
PS thanks for all the interest in this!
The other thing is another reason I got rid of the Quest is that I couldn't get fatter tires on it, 700x25 max. It was not very rugged, several pinch flats and 4 times at the bike shop getting the rims trued. I notice the geometry is almost the same on both ill try going theother way

Those are stock photos which means the OP's bikes are going to be different sizes. Also you can't go by saddle nose to crank spindle. You have to look at seat tube angle, and distance from saddle to pedal spindle with the crank in line with the seat tube.