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An Experiment

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Old 12-08-15 | 07:35 PM
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An Experiment

Every day I have people pass me within arms reach.

The other day I had an idea that I've been messing with.

In a situation where I expect some close passes, I kept my left arm out.

Imagine riding down a rural two lane road with no shoulder or bike lane, you're claiming the lane you're in, and some cars behind just found a gap in oncoming traffic so they can pass.

If I keep my regular riding posture, I'd say about a quarter of the cars will pass close enough I can touch their window.

If I keep my left arm extended, none of them pass me close enough for me to touch them.

I don't plan to ride like this on a regular basis, and I don't know what conclusions I can draw from this, I just found my results interesting.
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Old 12-08-15 | 07:41 PM
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My suspicion is that drivers believe you are signaling a movement to your left, and it makes them wary. If you ride frequently in the same places they'll probably eventually realize that you're not signalling and you won't perceive any benefit at that point.
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Old 12-08-15 | 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Buffalo Buff
Every day I have people pass me within arms reach.

The other day I had an idea that I've been messing with.

In a situation where I expect some close passes, I kept my left arm out.

Imagine riding down a rural two lane road with no shoulder or bike lane, you're claiming the lane you're in, and some cars behind just found a gap in oncoming traffic so they can pass.

If I keep my regular riding posture, I'd say about a quarter of the cars will pass close enough I can touch their window.

If I keep my left arm extended, none of them pass me close enough for me to touch them.

I don't plan to ride like this on a regular basis, and I don't know what conclusions I can draw from this, I just found my results interesting.
If they're still trying to pass when you take the lane, you're not far enough to the centerline. Confusing them using a left-turn hand signal really isn't the solution.
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Old 12-08-15 | 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mulveyr
If they're still trying to pass when you take the lane, you're not far enough to the centerline. Confusing them using a left-turn hand signal really isn't the solution.
Some drivers around here don't care where you are in the lane, they are going to pass, period. If I were on my PC I'd link you to some examples. I've had people go off road and pass me on the right so they don't have to wait for oncoming traffic to clear.
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Old 12-08-15 | 09:05 PM
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If you want more room ride erratically. The more newbie you look on the road the more they will give you space according to a study that we discussed here a while ago.
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Old 12-08-15 | 09:15 PM
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I've never understood the idea that moving left will magically prevent close passes. It might if there's approaching traffic, and passing between you and the oncomers is physically impossible. But if there's room to pass, drivers here will pass with roughly the same clearance wherever you are.

So all moving left does, is making passing more dangerous for everybody by increasing the distance the driver has to move left, and the time before he can come back into the lane.

Maybe this is an East/West thing, and maybe drivers out west treat lanes digitally, either changing or not. But here in Metro NY area drivers are more analog and take lane markers as only a suggestion. They have no problem flowing around cyclists, and it's easier for everyone if they only have to flow half a lane across.

This isn't to say that I suggest curb hugging, which would give no room to maneuver, but to remind people that the roadway is a shared resource, and it's possible to share it safely to everyone's benefit, including your own.
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Old 12-08-15 | 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
I've never understood the idea that moving left will magically prevent close passes. It might if there's approaching traffic, and passing between you and the oncomers is physically impossible. But if there's room to pass, drivers here will pass with roughly the same clearance wherever you are.

So all moving left does, is making passing more dangerous for everybody by increasing the distance the driver has to move left, and the time before he can come back into the lane.

Maybe this is an East/West thing, and maybe drivers out west treat lanes digitally, either changing or not. But here in Metro NY area drivers are more analog and take lane markers as only a suggestion. They have no problem flowing around cyclists, and it's easier for everyone if they only have to flow half a lane across.

This isn't to say that I suggest curb hugging, which would give no room to maneuver, but to remind people that the roadway is a shared resource, and it's possible to share it safely to everyone's benefit, including your own.
Even here in upstate NY I've found the difference between riding around Rochester and NYC to be quite significant; we have a *lot* of fairly narrow roads that have never been realigned since they were farm tracks, which means there are plenty of curves and poor sightlines. So it makes far more sense to be as left as possible simply to open up the sightlines a little more for the guy who's barreling up behind you at twice the posted speed. Most drivers won't try to pass you under those conditions unless they're patently suicidal. ( Which, granted, some appear to be... )
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Old 12-08-15 | 09:26 PM
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Sure, I think that drivers would tend to keep a minimum distance between themselves and the closest part of the cyclist. I believe I remember seeing a thread a few months back where someone put some sort of a stick with a flag sticking out past their left-edge with the same idea in mind (I couldn't find the thread).

What we need now is a blow-up, 2-wide 'riding buddy' that rolls along on your left side.
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Old 12-08-15 | 09:32 PM
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I believe I remember seeing a thread a few months back where someone put some sort of a stick with a flag sticking out past their left-edge with the same idea in mind (I couldn't find the thread).
I've considered that, but it would need to be carefully designed to break away easily if struck or grabbed by a passing vehicle, while holding just securely enough to hold on through the usual wind and jolts.

Alternatively, a leftward-aimed distance based discharger for Silly String, orange paint or an exploding dye pack could be amusing.
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Old 12-08-15 | 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mulveyr
Even here in upstate NY I've found the difference between riding around Rochester and NYC to be quite significant; we have a *lot* of fairly narrow roads that have never been realigned since they were farm tracks, which means there are plenty of curves and poor sightlines. So it makes far more sense to be as left as possible simply to open up the sightlines a little more for the guy who's barreling up behind you at twice the posted speed. Most drivers won't try to pass you under those conditions unless they're patently suicidal. ( Which, granted, some appear to be... )
Yes, there are plenty of reasons to move left situationally, including before entering right beds in roads, especially if there are no secant sight lines. I don't have a problem at all with that, nor with riding in the middle of the lane for better visibility as cars approach.

I'm talking about the notion of taking and keeping the lane, and trying to manage traffic behind you that way. All that achieves is having more cars piled up behind you rather than in front and pulling away. After over 50 years riding on shared roads, I find the attitude of many of today's cyclists and advocate hard to understand.
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Old 12-08-15 | 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hooCycles
Sure, I think that drivers would tend to keep a minimum distance between themselves and the closest part of the cyclist. I believe I remember seeing a thread a few months back where someone put some sort of a stick with a flag sticking out past their left-edge with the same idea in mind (I couldn't find the thread).

What we need now is a blow-up, 2-wide 'riding buddy' that rolls along on your left side.
some decades back there was a product called a "safety spacer". (or something like that)

Basically it was a flag on horizontal stick you affixed to your bike so it stuck out 2 feet or so to the left. To prevent making a bad thing worse, the stick had a breakaway design using a spring loaded cable running up the middle. They sold a few over a while, but never enough to become a real product.

EDIT- there have been a few iterations on the concept, like this one, that came out later, but none were nearly as well made as the original.
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Old 12-08-15 | 10:12 PM
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FB, I'm with you, though I'm not a city rider. I ride very rural so don't have much experience with heavy traffic. Either there is a huge shoulder I ride on in the heavy traffic, or there are no shoulders, lines, or traffic and I only get the occasional car.

I'll ride those huge shoulders and when I see a break in the cars (they come in waves) I jump over onto the smoother roadway. Rural, I ride a foot or 2 from the edge. I use a mirror so I can see when a car is coming up behind me. Being that I'm on a bike and sitting much higher than they are, I can typically see over the crest of a hill or see through a turn before one would in a car so I'll signal them to go on and pass. If I do see a car coming that the driver behind me wouldn't see yet, I'll signal back to him with my palm and maybe glide over a bit until that oncoming car is past. Though riding very rural as I said, rarely do I encounter a situation where a car behind me wants to pass with another car coming the opposite way.

I don't get all the control the lane stuff either. I'm doing like 10-15 mph while traffic is doing 45. Why would I want to be out in the middle of the road with that coming up behind me?
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Old 12-09-15 | 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
So all moving left does, is making passing more dangerous for everybody by increasing the distance the driver has to move left, and the time before he can come back into the lane.
Moving towards the left does provide you with more room on the right to get out of the way of a too-close passer.

Originally Posted by mulveyr
Most drivers won't try to pass you under those conditions unless they're patently suicidal. ( Which, granted, some appear to be... )
... or homicidal

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Old 12-09-15 | 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mrodgers
I don't get all the control the lane stuff either. I'm doing like 10-15 mph while traffic is doing 45. Why would I want to be out in the middle of the road with that coming up behind me?
Other than when the lack of sightlines demand it, mostly it's to deal with the situation where there's a tiny, broken, or non-existent shoulder on a narrow road and you end up with people passing within inches of you. Sometimes that's because there's an oncoming car, but most often drivers appear to believe that the Hand of God will smack them dead if they even contemplate moving over the center line to pass a cyclist, even with nobody coming the opposite way. Moving out into the lane seems to trigger a reflex where the drivers eventually realize "Hey, I actually CAN move into the opposite lane to pass this person safely."

Edit: Just as an example, here's a vid of my 13-year-old and I riding on a typical local road this past spring. Controlling the lane would probably have stopped the car coming up behind us from doing his best to have a head-on collision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDXQbCPRlHY
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Old 12-09-15 | 09:10 AM
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Moving left makes it easier for the drivers to see you from behind, and helps them to realize that they need to move over to pass. Otherwise they're tempted to pass in a straight line, sometimes dangerously close.

"Controlling the lane", by which some people mean trying to control traffic by being in their way, is a different story. But taking the lane, when we have to, does discourage the close passes.
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Old 12-09-15 | 09:10 AM
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[MENTION=396692]Buffalo Buff[/MENTION] I do not recommend making something like a left turn signal if you're not intending to turn left. What you CAN do, if it's obviously unsafe to pass, is extend your left arm out, but down at a 45° angle, palm back. That signals to other motorists to "stay back". It's best to do this while center or left of center in the lane. In my experience, this works nearly all the time. But even the few idiots who pass anyway still do so with a full lane change and plenty of clearance.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
I've never understood the idea that moving left will magically prevent close passes. It might if there's approaching traffic, and passing between you and the oncomers is physically impossible. But if there's room to pass, drivers here will pass with roughly the same clearance wherever you are.

So all moving left does, is making passing more dangerous for everybody by increasing the distance the driver has to move left, and the time before he can come back into the lane.

Maybe this is an East/West thing, and maybe drivers out west treat lanes digitally, either changing or not. But here in Metro NY area drivers are more analog and take lane markers as only a suggestion. They have no problem flowing around cyclists, and it's easier for everyone if they only have to flow half a lane across.

This isn't to say that I suggest curb hugging, which would give no room to maneuver, but to remind people that the roadway is a shared resource, and it's possible to share it safely to everyone's benefit, including your own.
[MENTION=158672]FBinNY[/MENTION] I know of a couple of LCI's, I think one in CA and one in FL, or maybe both in CA, who did some experiments where they rode the same stretch of (multilane I think) road, hundreds of time, at different positions in the right-hand lane. They started at the far right near the gutter, and would gradually move left in 1-foot increments.

What they found was that at first, moving left just a few feet, caused more close passes. But then at some point near the center of the lane, pretty much ALL passes became full lane change passes. This has been my experience by an overwhelming majority. Ride center or left of center in the lane and motorists WILL see you and notice you earlier and WILL change lanes to pass. I use a helmet mirror so I can monitor traffic in my lane behind me. Almost everyone changes lanes anywhere from 500' to a quarter of a mile behind me. Having ultra-bright rear lights helps with that, also.
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Old 12-09-15 | 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Moving left makes it easier for the drivers to see you from behind, and helps them to realize that they need to move over to pass. Otherwise they're tempted to pass in a straight line, sometimes dangerously close.

"Controlling the lane", by which some people mean trying to control traffic by being in their way, is a different story. But taking the lane, when we have to, does discourage the close passes.
Controlling the lane is not about being in anyone's way. It's about maintaining safety, which is top priority. By riding lane center by default, and not weaving back and forth, I'm being more predictable and visible to motorists behind me. And to me that is more courteous than some ill-conceived notion about not "being in the way" or motorists' convenience. Safety trumps convenience ALWAYS.

If there are no bike lanes (or there are dangerous door zone bike lanes), and the right lane is too narrow to share side-by-side (the majority of roads with lane lines in my area) then it's best to control the right lane. Roads are first-come, first-served. I require motorists to change lanes to pass me, and that is what I get, 99.5% of the time.
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Old 12-09-15 | 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
I've never understood the idea that moving left will magically prevent close passes. It might if there's approaching traffic, and passing between you and the oncomers is physically impossible. But if there's room to pass, drivers here will pass with roughly the same clearance wherever you are.

So all moving left does, is making passing more dangerous for everybody by increasing the distance the driver has to move left, and the time before he can come back into the lane.

Maybe this is an East/West thing, and maybe drivers out west treat lanes digitally, either changing or not. But here in Metro NY area drivers are more analog and take lane markers as only a suggestion. They have no problem flowing around cyclists, and it's easier for everyone if they only have to flow half a lane across.

This isn't to say that I suggest curb hugging, which would give no room to maneuver, but to remind people that the roadway is a shared resource, and it's possible to share it safely to everyone's benefit, including your own.
Well here in the Seattle area, the further left one rides in the lane the more aggressive and dangerous those who must pass become. It's impossible to "control" a lane or other road users, so I'm not going to try.
I find the right tire track is the best balance of not inviting squeeze passes, and not excessively antagonizing hostile drivers who will often retaliate.

Fortunately the truly dangerous close pass is a rare thing.
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Old 12-09-15 | 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
Controlling the lane is not about being in anyone's way. It's about maintaining safety, which is top priority. By riding lane center by default, and not weaving back and forth, I'm being more predictable and visible to motorists behind me. And to me that is more courteous than some ill-conceived notion about not "being in the way" or motorists' convenience. Safety trumps convenience ALWAYS.
What it's about depends on who's talking about "controlling the lane". Some people are pretty up-front that what they mean is "controlling traffic", and the only way a bike does that in a lane is by being in their way. Catch and release, same thing. I don't even use the phrase because it means different things to different people.

I have nothing against taking the lane, by which I mean moving left when we have to. "When we have to" is shorthand for the exceptions in FRAP law, which are: too narrow lane, and obstructions on the right. When I have cars passing too close, in the same lane, that automatically means that the lane is too narrow and I'll then "control the lane" in the sense that you mean it. It does inhibit the close passes.
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Old 12-09-15 | 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
What it's about depends on who's talking about "controlling the lane". Some people are pretty up-front that what they mean is "controlling traffic", and the only way a bike does that in a lane is by being in their way. Catch and release, same thing. I don't even use the phrase because it means different things to different people.

I have nothing against taking the lane, by which I mean moving left when we have to. "When we have to" is shorthand for the exceptions in FRAP law, which are: too narrow lane, and obstructions on the right. When I have cars passing too close, in the same lane, that automatically means that the lane is too narrow and I'll then "control the lane" in the sense that you mean it. It does inhibit the close passes.
Yeah if a lane is super wide like 16-20 feet, I'll ride farther right, but still 4-5 feet from the gutter, unless there are parked cars. In most places, though, the lane is in fact too narrow to share, and FTR does not apply.
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Old 12-09-15 | 09:52 AM
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I'd offer the practical tip of, instead of using your arm, get one of those "I'm here!" safety flags on their long fiberglass poles, and mount it sideways on your bike. This way you can keep both hands on the handlebars while keeping some distance between you and any traffic afraid of marring their vehicle's paint job, and if someone comes too close, it's better to break a fiberglass pole than your arm...
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Old 12-09-15 | 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by David Bierbaum
I'd offer the practical tip of, instead of using your arm, get one of those "I'm here!" safety flags on their long fiberglass poles, and mount it sideways on your bike. This way you can keep both hands on the handlebars while keeping some distance between you and any traffic afraid of marring their vehicle's paint job, and if someone comes too close, it's better to break a fiberglass pole than your arm...
There are YT videos of a guy who tried this, and a number of people still passed too close.

FTR in a narrow lane invites close passes, period. Doesn't matter if some spindly little thing is sticking out from the bike.
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Old 12-09-15 | 10:33 AM
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Here's one of the videos. Part of the problem is the POS excuse for a bike lane with a super-narrow adjacent lane. There should not be a bike lane on that road, at all.

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Old 12-09-15 | 10:49 AM
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Please don' misunderstand my position on this. I differentiate between riding lane position and keeping or taking the lane to manage passes.

My normal lane position on an open road is just to the right of the lane's center. I agree that center lane puts us where drivers are looking, and makes us more visible against the background. I think most experienced riders agree so far.

The difference is what happens on busier roads, or when cars actually begin their pass. Once a driver has seen me and begins his pass, I'll ease right, increasing the separation beyond what the driver planned, making it better for everyone. Likewise when traffic is a bit heavier, I'll move to about 2' in from the fog line to reduce the amount he needs to move over, and that's never failed to work for everyone.

But, there's a big difference between lane placement for safety and taking and keeping a lane because you legally can, without concern for motorists behind. If I feel I'm holding someone behind me up because there's no room to pass, I'll count off a few seconds and plan for a place for a safe pass at first opportunity. These passes are sometimes close, but not any closer than the passes I'm used to in NYC, and unlike the city, I'm not in a door lane when they happen.

I guess the difference is more about attitude. I'm not in competition with motorists who I feel are mostly interested in the same thing I am --- getting to my destination expeditiously. To that end I consider the road as a shared resource, and treat drivers the same way I'd treat family at the dinner table.
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Old 12-09-15 | 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mrodgers
Though riding very rural as I said, rarely do I encounter a situation where a car behind me wants to pass with another car coming the opposite way.

I don't get all the control the lane stuff either. I'm doing like 10-15 mph while traffic is doing 45. Why would I want to be out in the middle of the road with that coming up behind me?
Lucky you. I don't mean that in a snarky way either, I genuinely envy your situation.

I'm in a weird area. I'm just at the very edge of one of the biggest cities in the USA, but my area filters into a bunch of rural areas on the other side of the city. I get a TON of traffic from people commuting outside of the city into it, plus a lot of local traffic.

This is what every single day of my life is like as a bike commuter where I live:




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