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-   -   What do you do rolling up to a red light? (https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/1048548-what-do-you-do-rolling-up-red-light.html)

Darth Lefty 02-15-16 02:07 PM


Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 18538574)
Really? I've only ever heard that lane-splitting is legal in CA (for bikes and motorcycles)

If you want to split hairs: There is no law that allows lane sharing/splitting/filtering. There's only no law to prohibit it. The motorcycle handbook is weasely, implying that it's inadvisable without saying anything about what's permissible. The driver handbook does not mention it at all. This is how everyone seems to like it. We have a lot of 2-lane left turn lanes around here and it's pretty unclear what you are allowed to do. It seems like the answer is "whatever you think will work just don't piss anyone off"

joeyduck 02-15-16 03:31 PM

I had a conversation with a taxi driver about filtering this morning, but dealing with right turns. He was curious who would be at fault if a cyclist rolled up on the right of a right turning car and got hit. I told him it is a real gray area that I don't think it's legal but there is nothing really saying you can't filter either.

PatrickGSR94 02-15-16 03:43 PM


Originally Posted by joeyduck (Post 18538921)
I had a conversation with a taxi driver about filtering this morning, but dealing with right turns. He was curious who would be at fault if a cyclist rolled up on the right of a right turning car and got hit. I told him it is a real gray area that I don't think it's legal but there is nothing really saying you can't filter either.

That's the problem with many edge bike lanes, because they lead many cyclists to do exactly that. In 49 states, motorists are also required to turn right from as near to the curb as practicable to help prevent passing on the right (which is why most bike lanes have dashed lines near intersections). Oregon is the one state that does NOT allow cars to merge into bike lanes near right turns. Oregon law basically wants cyclists to get right-hooked.

This is also why it's not really safe to be in a bike lane zooming past stopped traffic. If you do so, you have to be on high alert for potentially turning cars. Don't let the paint think for you.

PatrickGSR94 02-15-16 03:52 PM


Originally Posted by Leisesturm (Post 18531818)
Personally I get as close to the intersection as possible. I'll wait behind the very first car but not directly behind. I'm always a little to the right. Even in fairly bike friendly Portland, if you are fifth person in line you are not going to make it through the intersection. The car behind you will be convinced that he could have made it if you weren't in his way. I've been screamed at, cussed out, horned, everything but hit, by drivers losing it as the signal times out. If I'm not in their way, its on them as to why they didn't make it through.

Why wait behind the 1st car? Why not wait in front of, and to the right of, the 1st car waiting to turn left? Either way you could swing wide and let other cars turn left as you head for the right side of the receiving road. Of course that assumes there's a place for you on the receiving road, either a separate travel lane or a bike lane.

It's not something I do, just curious.

joeyduck 02-15-16 03:52 PM


Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 (Post 18538942)
That's the problem with many edge bike lanes, because they lead many cyclists to do exactly that. In 49 states, motorists are also required to turn right from as near to the curb as practicable to help prevent passing on the right (which is why most bike lanes have dashed lines near intersections). Oregon is the one state that does NOT allow cars to merge into bike lanes near right turns. Oregon law basically wants cyclists to get right-hooked.

This is also why it's not really safe to be in a bike lane zooming past stopped traffic. If you do so, you have to be on high alert for potentially turning cars. Don't let the paint think for you.

I agree and told him I always tried to hang to the left of the right most lane to help turners. I also said it's a bad way to be passing drivers and it would likely be the cyclists fault. Here sometimes it's hard to get to the right most edge when turning since there is always parked cars and then there is the natural gap getting along side them then trying to head into the right turn. Leaving an opening for cyclists to try to get by and using an Idaho stop while not being aware.

PatrickGSR94 02-15-16 03:56 PM


Originally Posted by joeyduck (Post 18538963)
I agree and told him I always tried to hang to the left of the right most lane to help turners. I also said it's a bad way to be passing drivers and it would likely be the cyclists fault. Here sometimes it's hard to get to the right most edge when turning since there is always parked cars and then there is the natural gap getting along side them then trying to head into the right turn. Leaving an opening for cyclists to try to get by and using an Idaho stop while not being aware.

Yep, there are mindless ones among all of us, both cyclists and motorists. No matter what our choice of conveyance that day, we must always be aware of others around us. Sadly some aren't, which is when those tragedies happen.

RubeRad 02-15-16 04:43 PM


Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 (Post 18538962)
Why wait behind the 1st car? Why not wait in front of, and to the right of, the 1st car waiting to turn left? Either way you could swing wide and let other cars turn left as you head for the right side of the receiving road. Of course that assumes there's a place for you on the receiving road, either a separate travel lane or a bike lane.

It's not something I do, just curious.

That's exactly what I do. Front of the crosswalk, with the left-turning cars behind and left of me, and forward-going cars behind and right of me. Nobody can miss me (unless they're texting).

JReade 02-15-16 05:18 PM


Originally Posted by fietsbob (Post 18531318)
On The right side & Turning Left ? striped Bike lane on the street? You still can Be right Hooked
By Trucks as soon as the light turns If they dont look for YOU.

In My Small town I was given a PD warning to not ride the cross walk with the green light .

so I took up turning Right making a 180 'U-ey' then crossing with the green in the traffic lane ..

Heavy traffic? Octogenarian Geriatric Florida drivers? Use the Square Corner Left ... green light, wait for it.

stop on the far side of the street wait for the Green Light on that cross street , Then GO .

This is how I do it. 2-3 lanes to get to the turn lane, or make a right turn and u turn. I wouldn't be riding if I was in that much of a hurry.

canklecat 02-15-16 06:26 PM


Originally Posted by jfowler85 (Post 18535547)
...you can't accelerate as fast as car can, which puts you in the middle of a traffic line with which you cannot keep pace.

I'm not fast or a strong sprinter but I routinely beat cars into the intersection from stops, and often have to brake behind the lead cars when I take the lane for left turns. Unless the driver is particularly aggressive and floors the accelerator I have no difficulty matching or beating them into and midway across a typical intersection.

But maintaining that speed is another thing. Usually by the time I've reached the other side of the intersection most drivers are passing me.

The point is, I don't find it unsafe to take the lane for a left turn, either from the front of the lane if I happened to get there first, or behind a lead car. As I noted before, in busy traffic and complex intersections I prefer to get behind the first or second car in the left turn lane and let them break the path. As I complete the turn safely the flow of traffic is beginning to pick up speed and I'll merge toward the right to minimize delaying cars behind me. But often I need to brake or pedal less aggressively, because the cars in front aren't going as fast as I'd prefer.

rmfnla 02-15-16 07:48 PM


Originally Posted by jfowler85 (Post 18535547)
This is wrong. You need to be well aware of the entire intersection going in, ie before you get there, and conspicuously signal with your entire arm for everyone to see. I also filter to the front if I'm more than 2 cars back; when I get to the front I stick my lanky arm out to the left and repeat that again right before the light turns. Drivers will freak out if they don't know what you're doing, and the last thing you want is someone behaving erratically because they assume you are going to do something stupid.



2 problems here:

1) you can't accelerate as fast as car can, which puts you in the middle of a traffic line with which you cannot keep pace. This is dangerous and pisses people off, leading to like aggressive/punish passing by dumbasses on their way to Starbucks. That is, unless you live in Oregon...nicest drivers I've ever encountered were in around Bend and also Coos Bay.

2) cycling in traffic on the hope that stupid drivers will just "figure it out" is asking for trouble. You should ride proactively and defensively.

I think you misunderstand.

First, remember that we are turning left here. I am in front of everyone between the left turn and straight lanes; when the light changes I make the left alongside the car next to me that is also turning left. At no time am I in front of anyone.

Second, the OP mentioned cars that "freeze" because they don't 'get" what he is doing, even with a signal. My point is after they see my turn perhaps they will figure it out, but by that time I am long gone.

FWIW, I've been doing this for over 40 years, about 1500 commuter miles last year alone (in L.A.!) with no problems.

Safe, proactive and defensive, every time...

PolarBear007 02-15-16 08:35 PM


Originally Posted by Slaninar (Post 18531089)
I usually wait behind one car. If I'm first, I make room for a car to pass me (while waiting, not when it's green). That way I don't slow anybody down. I stay behind the first car, in the right side of the left turning lane. That way I can go parallel with the car if they start too slow.

This.

Otherwise, if i am the only vehicle making a left-turn i use arm-signals to communicate my intent to the on-coming, left-turn driver(s)/traffic.

grolby 02-15-16 09:26 PM


Originally Posted by alan s (Post 18531971)
Going to the front is following the same rules. They pass you, you pass them. No rule says passing a car or bike in the same lane as you is wrong. Why wait behind cars if they are stopped? Seems pointless.

This. Waiting in line is both pointless and more likely incur delays.


Originally Posted by mstateglfr (Post 18532031)
Applying that to bikes isnt unreasonable.

Sure it is. Motorcycles aren't bicycles and shouldn't be operated like bicycles.

JoeyBike 02-15-16 09:44 PM


Originally Posted by aERonAUtical96 (Post 18531063)
My question/thought... do you head to the front of the line? Do you tuck in behind the first or 2nd car? Do you just get in position wherever it happens to be? I'm thinking of stopping myself from moving to the front of the line if I'm turning. By sitting behind a car or two, I guess I get a little protection and if I take off I can sit on their bumper until I get through the turn.

Opinions?

Every intersection and every day is different. Sure, there are some patterns that repeat over time, but i take every instance individually instead of having some sort of plan. All I can say is that my DEFAULT is to get to the front by filtering. If the light turns green too soon I just merge into a gap formed by traffic starting to roll. Thankfully, cellphone use has made it ridiculously easy to catch a gap in traffic as almost everyone is looking at the device and late moving off a green light.

One final note: I am a fast rider and my acceleration from stopped is the same as a car in city traffic, and I can get up to 20+MPH in a couple of heartbeats. So I am not overly concerned about "blocking" any motorists behind me in a city grid (where I do the bulk of my commuting).


Originally Posted by grolby (Post 18539757)
This. Waiting in line is both pointless and more likely incur delays.

Most of the reasons why I commute on a bicycle are related to not waiting for anything I don't have to. So long as I don't cause anyone else to "react" to me, I am GOING!

Leisesturm 02-15-16 11:54 PM


Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 (Post 18538962)
Why wait behind the 1st car? Why not wait in front of, and to the right of, the 1st car waiting to turn left? Either way you could swing wide and let other cars turn left as you head for the right side of the receiving road. Of course that assumes there's a place for you on the receiving road, either a separate travel lane or a bike lane.

It's not something I do, just curious.

The reason for stopping behind the first car is because s/he has usually already gone as far forward as is practical. Either right up to the cross-walk, or right up to the edge of the intersection. Being any more forward than that is a bad idea in either case. And, yes, I swing wide through my turn and half the time following cars pace me through but do not attempt to pass, and half the time they do pass when they see that my line gives them plenty of room to do so.

Bike Gremlin 02-17-16 04:45 AM


Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 (Post 18538962)
Why wait behind the 1st car? Why not wait in front of, and to the right of, the 1st car waiting to turn left? Either way you could swing wide and let other cars turn left as you head for the right side of the receiving road. Of course that assumes there's a place for you on the receiving road, either a separate travel lane or a bike lane.

It's not something I do, just curious.

It's safer, less likely to produce any rage in other drivers and you also don't slow anybody down. I usually start as fast as the car for the starting of the turn, then move to it's side. If I were first, driver behind me might hesitate to drive parallel to me turning, but when I move over to the side of the car in front, it is when I'm sure it's safe and the others can just follow the car in front of them. That's been my experience so far at least.

Always ride in traffic, although bicycles aren't allowed to use car roads where there are separate bicycle lanes. The reason I chose to ride and find it safer in car roads is for another topic, but I'm happy to say that riding the way I do - no riders honk me, can't remember the last time anyone did. So I guess it's not bothering anyone too much. Just stay visible, predictable and get out of the way when It's safer/smarter, while taking the lane when that is the smart option.

PatrickGSR94 02-17-16 11:01 AM

My main problem with filtering is that you invariably force motorists who have already passed you, to pass you again. That can absolutely trigger rage among some people. Unless of course it's backed up for miles and there's no chance of any car passing you again. But that's why I prefer to take my place in line most of the time. Cars arriving after me (behind me) have not passed me before, so there's none of that "dammit I just passed that guy!!" feelings.

Cyclists don't like slower cyclists to jump ahead of them at stop lights, causing delays for other cyclists who have to pass them again. It's not very courteous to do the same to motorists, either.

hooCycles 02-17-16 11:24 AM

Heavily dependent on the circumstances. If there is no right turn lane and just a bike lane or shoulder I'll filter up to the front. If there is a right turn lane then I don't want to pull out into potential traffic just to cut back into the straight lane. If the road is a high-speed road and the cars will pass me immediately then I'll wait in line. If it's a dense urban intersection then I'll pull to the front since car/bike speed is not too different in my city. If the cars decided to pass me right before the light then I'll pass them since I want to mess with them. There are infinite scenarios, but it's interesting to hear how others do this. Good question.

kickstart 02-17-16 11:45 AM


Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94 (Post 18543736)
Cyclists don't like slower cyclists to jump ahead of them at stop lights, causing delays for other cyclists who have to pass them again. It's not very courteous to do the same to motorists, either.

I had a fool on a fixie do that to me. He filtered past me in the bike lane, bumped my front wheel while track standing poorly, jumped the light with the intersection still occupied, then shoaled me for several blocks when I caught up to him.
Some just don't have a clue how they effect others.

ARenko 02-17-16 12:17 PM

I do like several others have mentioned - go to the right of the left turn lane just in front of the first car. In my experience if I'm there first (and on the right) the first car usually stops to the left and just behind me - I'm sure so they can keep an eye on me. I can turn left without slowing any of the cars down by keeping to the outside of the turn. And nobody has to get around me again as I ride on roads with shoulders.

alan s 02-17-16 12:28 PM


Originally Posted by ARenko (Post 18543975)
I do like several others have mentioned - go to the right of the left turn lane just in front of the first car. In my experience if I'm there first (and on the right) the first car usually stops to the left and just behind me - I'm sure so they can keep an eye on me. I can turn left without slowing any of the cars down by keeping to the outside of the turn. And nobody has to get around me again as I ride on roads with shoulders.

This sounds about right, but apparently there are many who like sitting behind cars so they can breathe their exhaust and risk getting run over when the cars start moving. All so they don't offend anyone. God forbid you offend someone.

ARenko 02-17-16 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by alan s (Post 18543996)
This sounds about right, but apparently there are many who like sitting behind cars so they can breathe their exhaust and risk getting run over when the cars start moving. All so they don't offend anyone. God forbid you offend someone.

I'd be offended if a cyclist was in front of me slowing me down turning through the light. Who cares if he came from behind me if he's on the right of me anyway. Do people get in line when going straight as well?

RubeRad 02-17-16 12:47 PM

Going straight I will do just like turning left, I will go to the right of the rightmost lane going my way, and extrapolate the lane-line forward to the front of the crosswalk. I will actually get as far forward and left as safely possible to make room for cars to right-turn behind me.

kickstart 02-17-16 02:31 PM


Originally Posted by alan s (Post 18543996)
This sounds about right, but apparently there are many who like sitting behind cars so they can breathe their exhaust and risk getting run over when the cars start moving. All so they don't offend anyone. God forbid you offend someone.

More like give a little, take a little. I expect others to sacrifice a few moments of their precious time when appropriate, no reason why I can't do the same. As to the exhaust "issue", it all depends on how the wind is blowing and where the exhaust exits. Nice try, but a fail.

RubeRad 02-17-16 02:39 PM

If I get in line with the cars, I risk falling behind the cars in front of me and delaying cars behind me when everybody starts moving. If I split the lane, I am in my own 'lane'.

PatrickGSR94 02-17-16 03:02 PM


Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 18544044)
Going straight I will do just like turning left, I will go to the right of the rightmost lane going my way, and extrapolate the lane-line forward to the front of the crosswalk. I will actually get as far forward and left as safely possible to make room for cars to right-turn behind me.

If the right-most lane allows both straight and right-turning movements, that's a good way to get right hooked.

RubeRad 02-17-16 03:08 PM

Well of course I'm watching the front cars, if it's a red light the cars are either stopped because they're waiting to go forward, or they're creeping up in (my) bike lane because they want to turn right, in which case I ride behind them until/unless they get pinched, in which case I'll go around if I can fit, or wait behind if I can't.

Approaching a GREEN light with a right lane that can go straight/right is a totally different procedure, because of risk of right hook.

cyccommute 02-17-16 05:08 PM


Originally Posted by ARenko (Post 18543975)
I do like several others have mentioned - go to the right of the left turn lane just in front of the first car. In my experience if I'm there first (and on the right) the first car usually stops to the left and just behind me - I'm sure so they can keep an eye on me. I can turn left without slowing any of the cars down by keeping to the outside of the turn. And nobody has to get around me again as I ride on roads with shoulders.

There are several reasons why filtering to the front on a left turn is a very bad idea. First, if the left turning lane of cars has to wait on a left turn signal or if there is no left turn signal and the cars have to wait for on-coming traffic to clear, as a cyclist you are trapped to the right of the first left turning car and next to a line of cars that is moving on your right. People don't expect you to be in that position and, if someone is less than attentive, you could end up as a smear on the right front quarter panel of the first car in line.

Second, cars that are turning left aren't expecting to see a vehicle making the same left turn on their right. Again, you aren't in a place where a turning vehicle expect to see you. If the motorist makes a wider than normal left turn, you could still end up as a smear on the right front quarter panel of the first car in line.

Additionally, a turning car might not see you and could make a right turn into a driveway as soon as they turn left. This is a left/right hook combination.

By queuing up in line, you are in control of the cars behind you. You aren't sitting exposed to moving traffic on your right and, contrary to what some seem to think you are less likely to be hit by a car moving behind you. You are also predictable and the cars know how to deal with your movement. An on-coming motorist won't be confused by your actions as they recognize that you are turning left.

PatrickGSR94 02-18-16 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 18544698)
There are several reasons why filtering to the front on a left turn is a very bad idea. First, if the left turning lane of cars has to wait on a left turn signal or if there is no left turn signal and the cars have to wait for on-coming traffic to clear, as a cyclist you are trapped to the right of the first left turning car and next to a line of cars that is moving on your right. People don't expect you to be in that position and, if someone is less than attentive, you could end up as a smear on the right front quarter panel of the first car in line.

Second, cars that are turning left aren't expecting to see a vehicle making the same left turn on their right. Again, you aren't in a place where a turning vehicle expect to see you. If the motorist makes a wider than normal left turn, you could still end up as a smear on the right front quarter panel of the first car in line.

Additionally, a turning car might not see you and could make a right turn into a driveway as soon as they turn left. This is a left/right hook combination.

By queuing up in line, you are in control of the cars behind you. You aren't sitting exposed to moving traffic on your right and, contrary to what some seem to think you are less likely to be hit by a car moving behind you. You are also predictable and the cars know how to deal with your movement. An on-coming motorist won't be confused by your actions as they recognize that you are turning left.

Excellent explanations there. I know of at least 2 situations like the last one you mentioned where a left-turning motorists could immediately turn right into a driveway. If there are 2 lanes on the "receiving" road, left-turning motorists SHOULD be turning into the near-most lane, or the left lane. However many, many people turn directly into the right lane. Not a good idea to be out of the line of left turning traffic when you're also trying to turn left, and trying to get into the right lane when a motorist may also be heading directly for the right lane. If not a smear on the front fender, you could end up under the right rear tire.

kickstart 02-18-16 09:26 AM

Making a left turn from a turn lane basically plays out one of two ways.
1. If there's a usable bike lane or shoulder one can be clear of following vehicles before clearing the intersection by slightly squaring ones turn.
2. if there's no usable bike lane or shoulder one will continue using the lane and following vehicles will have to wait for an opportunity to pass.

Filtering in scenario 1 accomplishes nothing of real value for the increased risk. Filtering in scenario 2 is just playing leapfrog.

PatrickGSR94 02-18-16 09:46 AM

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I should mention one location down near Destin, Florida where I made a left turn using a sidewalk on the left side, riding contraflow for a short distance.

The reason for doing so is that based on prior experience, the nearly 1/4 mile long left turn lane usually ends up with a massive line of cars trying to turn left, in addition to the massive amount of traffic in the 2 straight-through travel lanes. This is heading west on Hwy 98 in Miramar Beach towards Destin, with the left turn onto Old Scenic 98 running along the beach, if you want to look it up.

I had previously used the bike lane to make a box left turn at that location. The problem is that the light cycles are incredibly long at that particular light. So the next time I took advantage of a break in traffic platoons to move to the center turn lane (before it went away at the left turn lane with concrete median), and turned left onto the sidewalk on the opposite side of the road. Then I rode the sidewalk very carefully to get to the intersection, and used the crosswalk at the appropriate time to get to the travel lane on Scenic 98.

But that is a very specialized, unique situation. I have never encountered such a long, high-traffic left turn lane anywhere else in all my time cycling.


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