Thank you very much! It's very refreshing to meet someone willing to discuss and debate rather than back into a corner take the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude.

The distance to my job wouldn't pose a problem as far as the ride itself. Like I said, it's 14 miles, mostly on divided 4 lane. My problem is that I simply don't have the nerve to ride that far with that many cars, 18 wheelers, and dump trucks zipping by at 70+ mph! I see too many of them bobble off the road every day on the way in everyday. Might as well paint a bullseye on my back.

Anyway, getting back on the gas price thing, it took another jump today to 2.37 here. I'd love to ride and not use the fuel, but as I mentioned before, after that ride, I'd need a place to clean up and change. If everyone that just worked in the office areas at my job rode in, we'd need facilities for around 200 to clean up and change. Lots of the folks that have posted here and in the other threads often list a complaint that they have no place to store the bike indoors (security, weather, etc). If your office can't accomodate 1 bike, what are you going to do with a couple hundred of them? Then if you add the production folks in the mix, you've got 500 bikes to park. And before someone gets started, when it comes to parking bikes, a bike is a bike. Just because yours is some fancy high dollar brand doesn't get you any more consideration than the guy that rides a department store bike. Just like in the car parking lot, the Cadillac parks next to the Pinto.

Now I agree, it would take far less real estate to park 500 bikes than it does 500 cars. (Oh, there's another use for oil....asphalt!) But it my car sits in the parking lot and gets covered in sleet, I can start it and in a few minutes, it's warm and driveable. A bike coated with an inch or so of ice is going to be difficult to do anything with.

Do you find it interesting that you're trying to solve the problem of "200 bike commuters" when we're talking about 1? I work ina place with a several hundred employees. Nobody seems to think it strange that there is an additional 300 square feet dedicated to each person plus garage attendants yet asking for a locker room in the event that there are hundreds of bicycle commuters is out of line.... Really?

Oh, and my bike needs no warmup, not ever a few minutes, when it's coated with an inch of ice. Actually, that's not true. If it's an inch of ice, I probably won't be riding. But then when it's really an inch of ice, sane people won't be driving either. I assume you mean normal winter inclement weather. And in those conditions, I'm ready to roll in about 45 seconds.

Seriousy, I sympathize with your position and that of millions of Americans. As I wrote previously, we've painted ourselves into a corner. But don't pretend like there's nothing we can do about it other than cross our fingers and pray to the hydrogen idol. The fact is, our lifestyle is unsustainable. If I said I wanted to live at the bottom of the ocean and *****ed and moaned about how expensive it was to come up every day and drive 300 miles inland to my job you'd rightly call me an idiot.

There's a qualitative difference between the two to be sure but still, it's just a difference of degrees.

I agree with you. Body chemistries differ, so some are afflicted worse than others. As for me, the drenching in sweat that I would get on a summer day here in Arkansas on the way to work would with in a matter of hours have me giving off fumes that would make the wallpaper slide off. Without a shower or at least a "sponge bath" , I get ripe in a hurry. I won't subject someone else to that, nor do I expect to be subjected to it. It's one thing to be a little "fragrant" at the end of the day, especially if you work in a hot environment, that's to be expected and is unavoidable. There is however, no excuse for starting out that way. It's even written into our personnel manual. I forget the exact wording, but basically it states that if you arrive at work in that condition, you will be asked to return home, bathe and change, and to not return till you do.

If 500 people were riding to work at my employer, I'm sure we would have enough pull to convince mngmnt. to create covered, secure parking.

The parking garages weren't there before people started driving to work.

america doesnt have good public transportation

Ain't that the truth.

Ok, looks like you missed my point. The "hundreds of bike commuters" as you put it was a response to someone who was basically stating that there was no reason everyone on the face of the earth couldn't ride to work everyday. And I'm not saying that they can't, just simply that it would impose a whole new set of problems for the riders. Of course I suppose that some of your parking garage could be converted to attend those needs. Hadn't thought about that. Never worked for a company that had a garage, let alone parking attendants. Must be nice. I park the car myself in a lot, sometimes several hundred feet from the front door.

And by the way, an inch of ice is no slicker than and 1/8 of an inch of ice, it just takes longer to melt. My bike won't shift or brake properly when its got that much ice on it. Granted, its not some multiple thousand dollar bike, just a poor Fuji, but the seat is still wet and cold even if I chip the ice off it.

As for normal inclement weather, such an ice storm is a common occurance here. We don't get much snow, but it is not unusual especially in January and February for it to be 45 degrees at 7 a.m., and by 4 the same afternoon to have it be in the teens and have anywhere from a quarter to half inch of ice on everything. That is often followed by a couple inches of very wet, heavy snow. Of course it melts off in a day or two (usually) but it breaks trees, downs powerlines, and generally makes a mess while its here.

The "hydrogen idol" as you called it was yet another example of some suggestions that others had put forth, I was trying to make the same point you are, in that we must find other answers, new technologies, and so forth. The bicycle is a wonderful, efficient machine, but we can't hide behind it either. As I've said several times before, the end of the crude oil supply will be reached at some point, I believe, in the very near future. We don't have time to argue and debate, we must figure out something PDQ! No form of bicycle will transport freight, harvest grain, power machinery, heat houses, or any of the other things we rely on oil for. Sure, conservation will extend how long the supply lasts, but that's a band aide solution. Something, whether it be hydrogen, alcohol, bio-diesel, or some as yet to be invented or discovered fuel source will have to be developed, tested, implemented and adapted to the existing vehicles, (meaning cars, planes, trucks, tractors, etc) and other uses for oil before that end is reached.

If gas prices continue to be high, I think U.S. consumers will probably respond first by planning their trips with more care, then eventually replacing low-MPG vehicles with newer high-MPG cars. This is what happened before in the 1970's.

One interesting side effect of such a trend would be that it's easier for smaller cars to share roads with bikes.

"Of course you couldnt fathom that anyone who's cycled as transportation before would ever go back to driving. "

Hmmm... there's a series of self-righteous assumptions you're making. Cycle commuting an extreme activity, I can't understand car use after riding a bike, whatever. I might even admit to making the same sort of assumptions now and again, so I'm not too testy about it.

Of course I can fathom someone going back to a car. I even use mine now and again. But cycle commuting has nothing "extreme" about it, sorry. Unless you factor in it's often extremely convienent. More so than a car, in certain situations. No one here has claimed it's perfect.

I'm picturing something like THIS except a little larger, and with an electric motor. Also, it may or may not have pedals... I am assuming that many people still do not want to put much effort into moving themselves, therefore a vehicle like this that requires some pedal input would not sell very well. It would probably have over-the-seat steering, kind of like a Windcheetah, with a throttle built into one of the grips. Brakes would also be located there. It should have a decent-sized storage compartment behind the seat, and over the motor. I expect the max speed to be about 60 km/h. Hmmm, I suppose it might also need a big ol' bar of metal across the front to act as a bumper, too. Hopefully the weight of this thing could be kept under 75 pounds (stupid heavy batteries).

Conservation's time is over. People talk about switching to high-MPG cars, and fixing hydrogen ain't free. These type of 'ideas' are mostly to stroke the egos of people who feel twinges of guilt about some article they read in USA Today. Our car manufacturers earn a hefty premium on each of these 'earth-friendly' cars.The time is ripe for more radical solutions that require our government to act swiftly instead of putting the onus on car companies to up their fleet MPG by .5 miles in 2007. Subaru's cars are now mostly all classified as 'light truck' or 'SUV' to avoid the fleet mileage requirement. Do we really trust for-profit organizations to lead us out of the valley of consumption?

I had a longer reply which went into my feelings about large familys (I did grow up in one though), and the American definition of adequate space but I'll refrain from boring all of you and just say that even after riding into work in 70+ degree temps with 70+% humidity, not showering, then riding home in 90+ degree temps with the same humidity, I do not smell. Your mileage may vary but the assumption that you have to stink and be sweaty all day at work just to be able to cycle in is not true.

I suppose if I drove. I work for a science museum, so we pretty much have to have on-site parking. Since it's paid parking, we need attendants.

Me, I have to park in the crappy playground bike racks by the front door that don't actually fit an adult bike and leave my ride to the whims of the marauding bands of kids. I used to have a set of fun valve covers. After they were stolen twice, I stopped replacing them. But I've gotten off easy compared with what some of my coworkers have had stolen.

I sure wish I had secure monitored parking.

I would almost bet that your bike is nicer than mine. This is what I ride when it's snowy out. I put a plastic bag over the saddle while I'm inside to keep it dry. I paid $130 for the bike which would have been sufficient for all but the coldest days. I like the feel of a fixed gear and wanted to be able to ride when it gets down to 0, so I built the rear wheel for $150 though I could have done it for $85, I just wanted a bomber off-road wheel too. I also didn't like the pedals, so I swapped out the plastic blocks for metal shin shredders for $25. It came with slicks which weren't any good for the weather I was planning on, so I got new tires for it for $60. For $130 you could be rolling on a bike that will serve you just fine in snowy weather. For $350 you can have the dream machine I put before you.

https://www.zweknu.org/uploads/t-0_1024.jpg

Still, in my experience, I retain control of my bicycle under conditions in which cars are sliding all over. One time last winter I even stopped on my way to work to help push a guy in a 4WD Jeep through an intersection because he was spinning out and couldn't move. Studded tires would allow me to ride on even the worst glare ice.

And I'm making the point that our lifestyle has gotten out of control and we need to think real hard about it because there are a lot of problems that need to be solved, fuel for personal mobility is just one.

Besides all that, commuting actually constitutes a small minority of the average household's motor vehicle trips. So to raise up the specter of the uncooperative workplace doesn't really fly because there are many more trips in the day for most people.

I agree, we need to find solutions in the shortest order. I also don't care if they're bicycle-based, though I think that is a part of it. I'd much rather promote effective mass transit than bicycle transportation, but this isn't TransitForums, is it?

You claim living in higher density communities to allow for more reasonable transportation options is an extreme lifestyle. I find that ironic given that our most pressing public concerns revolve around being able to continue to live the sprawl lifestyle without putting ourselves in hock and wrecking the environment in the process.

Be careful Bostontrevor, don't speak your mind or the "m" word will be uttered. :-)

The band-aide is wishful thinking that we can somehow continue this 500HP/person, crazy, whacko system of transporation that we have WITHOUT conservation. What fuel source? There's nothing on the horizon that is as immediate or effective as conservation. We WILL run out of crude. Or air. So why not make changes NOW to prevent misery later? If we want to get through this without war, poverty, and societal dissolution, we need to mandate:

* A 45 MPH national speed limit
* All personal vehicles less than 10 HP
* Triple gas prices, with taxes going to infracture rework
* All jumbo jets eliminated
* Rebuild national rail systems

If you think this is radical, then you missed the point: We WILL run out of fuel. We will have NO choice. 2 Billion people in India and China are just about to enter the same kind of wasteful lifestyle that we've been "enjoying", so the end may be sooner than the oil baron President would like us to think.

If we continue to allow people to flail themselves around in 500 HP PERSONAL vechicles, we're not going to have fuel left over for hauling freight, harvesting wheat, or keeping warm. Real conservation, with imagination, IS the best solution, not a band-aide. Bicycles, with a reworked infrastructure can be a big part of that solution. Trying to maintain a 500HP/person transporation system with some other fuel, even if technically feasible, will be disastrous to our planet and to our children's future.

Now THERE's a workhorse! Nice.

Wow. Its like playing "Where's Waldo" to find all the bananas. I count about 60 oz of suspiciously yellow liquid there. How far did you say you were going? What's the long silvery thing below the bottom bar? A pump?

Note: "Many European nations tax gasoline heavily, with taxes making up as much as 75 percent of the cost of a gallon of gasoline."

I understand that our gas is relatively cheap here in the states when compared to other parts of the world. However, what ticks me off is the gas companies claiming shortages etc. and they're making a killing!

I road my bike to work today and figured that I had saved just about $6 by not driving. That's about $120 a month (give or take a few) and that doesn't include my car payment! I can't wait till I sell my car.

MarkS' ideas of conservation, while maybe tongue-in-cheek, would never reach the House or Senate floors. Unless, of course, they are already in their fail-safe bunker pulling the levers of government. We've made our bed, it's time to sleep. The only option from a realists' perspective is to go 'secure' more oil fields.

Congress barely abides Amtrak, threatening to privatize it (read: no subsidies) most every year.

I'd like to see people driving 45 mph on the interstate. That would be a hoot.

All those personal vehicles with 10 HP would, almost by definition, be two-stroke engines which emit LOTS of CO and unburned fuel.

Venezuela, state #51 established 2015. Can anyone come up with their state motto?

Cheapest gas in the union.

Wrong on so many counts! Those are actually granola bars, but they do look suspicously like bananas. You're not the first to think so and they are definitely sneaky. Sadly, I really don't like bananas so I'm missing out on nature's perfect food. It's about an even metric to my campsite from the front door. Of course the fluid is gatorade + water... gotta have a lot of that isotonic goodness when pushing a 61 gear-inch fixed machine on offroad tires in 90+ degree heat (talk about timing). Even so, I ended up stopping and buying another 24 oz on the road. The thing under the downtube is a mud shield.

I'm actually going down there again this weekend, but I'm taking the train this time. It was fun doing the self-supported thing, but it wasn't worth the agony near the end and never being quite fully recovered all weekend.

Blast off in 60 minutes.

Venezuela used to be part of Texas, right? I mean Mexico, remember, was at one point part of Colorado. We have precedents in history. We gotta take what's ours. Manifest destiny.

Edit: BostonTrevor, that's a sweet bike. Don't let anyone tell ya otherwise. Me, I prefer derailleurs...but you got yerself a hoss.

What you're describing, I think, is what we probably WILL do ... not what we should do. There's a limit to how many 3rd world countries we can beat up to get oil. Other big, nuclear states will want their share too, and we'll have a harder time stealing from them.
You're saying that we can send a shuttle 1/10th of the way to the moon (at $500,000,000 a pop), but we can't build a clean-burning 10 HP engine? It would be 10HP for internal combustion, but 20HP for electric, stirling, or bio-fueled vehicles.

You may think a 45MPH speed limit is silly, but the national speed limit was 45 when we were last in a real, bonafide, declared war. Hey! We're in a war now! Our president says so! So why is there no national speed limit? At 45 MPH, any form of public transportation becomes competitive.

Back when I was doing massive commutes, I found my average speed was more like 35MPH, since you could depend on there being a traffic-jam forming accident every 15 miles. At 45, we would save lives. I'd rather drive 45 non-stop then drive 70 and have to sit in stop-and-go traffic for 20 minutes.

Venezuela motto: Bush Country

Judging by the number of water bottles on your bike your commute must be about 50 miles each way.

MarkS, I don't think a 45 MPH limit is silly. I just don't see Americans adopting the 'radical' or 'extreme' (pick your epithet) ethos that we are describing. I see a lazy-minded nation when it comes to our energy 'policy', and a quick glance at the average-sized car on the road will confirm this. Hell, look at the average size of an American.

Those personal electronic, stirling or bio-fuel vehicles are all tied into the coal/hydro/natural gas/oil/wind power/solar grid anyway. These conservation measures were discussed in the 70's and did not come to fruition. Someone, somewhere is still working on cold fusion. I'm not belittling those efforts, just pointing out that the oil path is well-worn and we're not getting off.

Venezuela motto: Estado de la Estrella Solita.