I have been thinking about this and had a dream last night that was good enough to remember. Build a shotgun for 410 gage shells and make it look and work like a frame pump! The barrel could easily be threaded on both ends for the adaptor to hold the 410 shell and a pull back and release hammer to shoot it. The other end would have a small plastic disposable cover (that can be shot off), which would also be the adaptor for holding the pump in the frame mounts. When you actually need the pump you remove the shotgun parts by unscrewing them and replace with pump parts of the kit so the barrel becomes a real air pump with check valve and short hose on one end and a pump handle and piston on the other. I have a metal lathe and mill so I could whip one out in a jiffy.

I think what you're describing won't meet regulations for a legal shotgun, commonly a barrel length greater than 18 inches and overall length greater than 26 inches. That means you'd be carrying a weapon illegally. That makes it problematic to claim self-defense. And this is before you meet all of the requirements for justifiable lethal force.

Before you even think of carrying a gun for self-defense and assuming you've already gone through all of the usual firearms safety courses it is worthwhile reviewing some wise commentary on the web:

No Nonsense Self-Defense
Masaad Ayoob Lethal Force Institute

I do the same thing I do to avoid alien abduction. I don't worry about it. If either one does happen to me, I guess I'll be sorry I wasn't prepared, but I'm 42 years old and haven't had the need to hit anyone yet, so I'm betting it's not worth my time to worry about it.

I have started taking Tae Kwon Do, but self-defense never crossed my mind. I'm doing it because my 9-year-old is doing it and it's something to do with him, plus it feels REALLY good on my legs after riding.

Very, very good advice. Fighting is not gentlemanly fisticuffs. Its brutal, fierce and very fast. Like you said, hit first and often.

The only thing I would add, is be prepared to get hurt, but don't give up.

If you have to use a baton or club or pipe in an assailant, you run the risk of being charged with a crime. If all a criminal wants is your belongings, then give it them. If that person wants to do you bodily harm , well thats a different story. The short of it is, if you use an impact weapon, be prepared to be grilled by teh police or at the very least answers their questions...

I carry tools so that if someone bugs me, I can remove the cranks and BB and throw that at them like a boomerang. If that fails, I remove the tires from the rims and toss the wheels so the sharp spinning metal can decapitate them. I'd like to claim credit for that idea, but Goldfinger's henchman, Odd Job, came up with it first.

Sometimes I don't feel like taking my bike apart and putting it back together on the road, so I just be aware of my surroundings. I keep scanning ahead as well as behind (in my mirrors) for potential threats. Curiously enough, this method also protects you from being run over by cars that don't see you. Also, it lets you mentally prepare yourself when you see a vehicle likely to harass you approaching from the rear -- if you know you're about to be buzzed, you don't get surprised and angry when it happens.

to all the people thinking of just giving up yous stuff....dont forget there are crazy mofos who will shoot you for the hell of it even after you give them everything they want. as soon as someone threatens me they are telling me that they dont value their life, well, i wont either. of course avoid bad situations and be aware is the first rule.

p.s. carry an empty spare wallet in your pocket and toss it if needed. as soon as it leaves your hands attack/flee. the wallet falling to the ground hopefully will distract the mofo long enough for me to draw and aim at his worthlessness.
(thats just me though, when i fear for my life my motto is "no questions, no hesitation, no regrets" know your local self-defense laws)


pps o yeah if the cops come and you happened to kill or maim your attacker, dont talk to the cops ask for a lawyer. any cop worth his salt knows a scary/life-threatening situation is the worst time to answer questions that could send you to jail falsley

I went through the required course to obtain my concealed carry weapon license. The policeman/instructor said always shoot to kill. It's better for the community, the person defending him/herself, and the police. I know my DIY shotgun/frame pump would be illegal but how many people would look carefully enough to figure it out?

Yup. Keeping your wits about you is your best defense. I'm still not very good at that in the heat of the moment. In addition to the frame pump (unfortunately buried in my pannier), I also have pepper spray as another line of defense.

Just the other morning I had a jogger react like he thought I was a potential mugger. He changed sides of the street, u-turned, and stopped under a street light and took a defensive posture until I got out of his sight. Not sure stopping under a light was his best move but ... I guess there's been a string of muggings lately where the mugger was dressed in high-vis, reflective gear, wearing helmet lights and riding a well lit bike

i bet the jury would find out

The firearms examiner that looks it over before trial will certainly know what it is (he will also check to see if it was ever stolen, etc). There are a couple of points worth mentioning: first is that what you want to build violates federal laws, the first being manufacture of an illegal weapon, the second that it would be classified as "Any Other Weapon" under ATF rules and require a tax stamp with the requisite background check and signature from the chief LEO in your area to possess it. Figure ten years each in federal prison as a good guideline, plus the potential for state charges. I would also add that one should stick to weapons that won't make a jury think that you are an evil person. You want to look like, and indeed be, a law abiding person should your peers ever have to decide your guilt or innocence. Whatever you use/carry should be legal in your jurisdiction, and you should follow the rules for carry and/or use.

Finally, you needn't be paranoid in life, but you should be aware of what is going on around you all the time, and even more so if you carry a weapon. I have no problem with people choosing to carry legal means of defense, but remember that if you do, there will be a weapon at every potential conflict. In addition to knowing how to use it, you had better know how to retain it. I personally think that most state CCW courses are a joke. If you want to carry, plan to attend a quality firearms school (LFI, Gunsite, TDI, etc) where they will address more than state firearms law and firing a few rounds on a square range.

Same here- but it is not confrontation by one or two in the street that you have to worry about. It is those in cars that are out to get you. A Car is a lethal weapon.

From the forces- I was trained in unarmed combat- There ain't no such thing- Throw the bike at one and kick hell out of the other. It works and cleats make a nasty mess. Still believe that the best defence is my legs. They can run and pedal far greater and faster than any yobbo.

Well, I guess this explains why I don't get bothered much. First, down here I look like Herman Munster - secondly, Gringos are known for being nuts (just look at our movies). No mugger wants to take on someone who can do serious damage unless they are desperate.

One other thing - the best Self-defense is an attitude. I spent more than my share of time in bad sections of towns. Never was bothered (but in school, till I learned, boy did I have the fights!) I looked like I really wouldn't mind the fight... and I wouldn't be nice in it.

If someone knows you aren't going to be civilized - well, it tends to make them think twice. After all, for most of us, we are in a LOT better shape than they are.

Of course my real solution was to move to a place where people are peaceful. Unless someone is drunk - they just don't fight much down here. All I fight down here is chickens and cows.

I dont seem to get into a whole lot of trouble (maybe being 6'3 - 250 has something to do with that....) I had a guy try to mug me my Freshman year of College, but as soon as he saw me pull my blade it was over. If I am out I am always carrying my compact 1911 concealed on my hip ( I have a licence) my CRKT knife on my pocket, and a SureFire on the belt. I have never drawn my gun, but if the situation arises that I have to use it, you bet your ass I will.

There was a comment earlier about shooting to kill. YOU ALWAYS SHOOT TO KILL! If you arent prepared to take a life, you shouldnt be shooting the in the first place. Also, If you shoot someone, and leave them disabled, its possble that you could be sued! Also, if you shoot someone, OC someone, strike someone, whatever, be PREPARED TO BE ARRESTED! You WILL be arrested. Charges may or may not be filed, but you must be prepared for this. If you are planning on carrying ANY weapon, spend some money on a good lawyer, if you use your weapon, you will need the lawyer.

The prosecutors...

I think Q's got an opening for you. My memories fogged but I think he's R.I.P looking down right now. I personally like the 6D or 6C Maglite approach. I have a 6D right now (expensive as hell to maintain the juice >_<;; ) but when I see another sale I'm getting a 6C and a few AA-to-C adaptors and sticking them in. If you have a backpack then try to mod or get some sewing company to mod a side holder to hold the Maglite. Or better yet, mod the sleeve holder on the back of the backpack and pull it out like a backdrwn sword. I like the Maglite myself because it gives you light, a semi-hammer, a striking stick, and it's reliable/durable. I'd go with an ASP extendable baton second but I still love the Maglite. Something about it's sexy smoothness.

I'm pretty sure it's in Episode #8 I forgot. https://home.comcast.net/%7Eldrendall.../download.html



Zero_Enigma

Others say the main reason you shoot to kill is that dead people can't come back to try to kill you. Even if you were totally justified, and he goes to jail, every day he spends in jail, he is going to be plotting his revenge, especially if he now has to wear a colostomy bag or his face looks like Quasimodo. If he's dead, its highly unlikely a family member or a fellow gang member is going to mess with you.

Another reason to kill is that dead people can't testify against you. Its very unlikely that you will be charged if you say, he "threatened to kill me, he had a gun or knife or car, whatever, I felt in fear for my life" and there's nobody around to contradict your story.

I think this part just needs to be re-emphasized again. I posted the link to LFI above as well.

Who ARE you people? (Don't mean to single out FlatFender with an out-of-context quote, but it was the juiciest recent one....) I live in New York City. I don't know ANYONE who has a gun. Really. Maybe threads like these bring out the munitions experts; I don't know. Personally, I feel much safer on the bike than off.

These threads tend to bring out the wannabe rambos who have never seen a shot fired in anger, let alone taken a life. But, on the bright side, these are bike forums, so hopefully nobody takes the 'expert' opinions of weekend paper-punchers too darn serious.

Some state's attorney's would take that statement as predisposition to kill someone. I thought you shot to STOP an attack.

Families of dead people sue every day, and dead people have friends who might want to harm you, so let's bury those two pieces of wisdom right now. Keep in mind that there is a lot more to an investigation that testimony.

Not to pick on FlatFender, but here's a reality check. Shootings are nothing like square range drills.

Your opponent might start with violence, not threats.
Your opponent is probably armed.
This is not his first rodeo.
He may have brought a few friends.
That draw you practiced so diligently may not work so well when you are on the ground getting the crap kicked out of you, or when the bad guy is actively trying to take your pistola from you, or when someone is shooting at you or going at you like a human cuisinart.
When you shoot, you had better not put a round through the dome of some person walking down the street, or through the bedroom wall of a child or elderly person.
Unless you qualify for a public defender, expect your attorney to ask for $5K up front, and you had better exercise your right to counsel as well as your right to remain silent even if things go well.
Even if you win the battle, you can lose the war-legally or mortally.

I prefer the term, "shoot to live."

lol, I live in Northern Michigan. I dont know of ANY household that does not have at LEAST one firearm. Everyone hunts. Nov. 15th (Opening day of Firearm deer season) is a holiday, schools are closed and everything.

As far as the wannabe Rambo quote, I will tell you that I take a lot of pride in being a Responsible gun owner. I own more gun locks than I do guns. My guns are locked with a trigger lock, inside a locked steel cabinet. Ammo is locked in another case in another room. I carry my gun for my job, along w/ OC spray, a collapsible baton, and 2 pairs of handcuffs.

^^ I agree 100% with this post. Carrying a firearm is not for everyone. But keep in mind that you encounter people EVERY DAY who are carrying one.