It's easier to be knock the straw man down that way.

Universal ticket strategy: Call the number on the back of the ticket a few days after it's issued (so there's time for it to be entered). Have a very polite and calm chat with the clerk about what their system is for folks who don't want to just pay the fine. They will usually be quite helpful. Do understand they have no vested interest in you, the ticket, nor the disposition of the matter. Ideally you're shooting for a plea bargain of sorts and you will be out some money in the deal.

And Pittsburgh where it is called a Pittsburgh left. I lived in MA for a while and visit Pittsburgh quite often and I am very surprised at the number of vehicles who perform these maneuvers. In Massachusetts especially it is expected that the drivers will turn left as the light turns green and cars will wait for them.
In Cleveland I almost never see it unless the only oncoming traffic is a bicycle. But ofcourse to most drivers mind bicycles don't count.

As to the original topic. If you blew a stop sign without slowing to a near stop, or you entered the intersection out of turn then pay up and don't waste your time or tax payers money. If you feel you obeyed the intent of the sign by slowing to a near stop and waiting your time for the intersection then appealing may make sense. I'm guessing it was the former and you should just pay up and consider it a lesson learned. I doubt many cops are going to cite you if you are being safe.

Craig

I sometimes see a car that I suspect is about to try that when I'm in the oncoming lane going straight. I check carefully that there's nobody in the crosswalks or other locations, then I make sure to get right on the gas as soon as the light turns. Around here anyway they always back down, unless it's a crazy-wide intersection that takes several seconds to get across.

Er, well...insofar as this is "expected" by anyone, it's because delayed greens are fairly common in MA. They're not universal, however, and anyone who gets a green and expects that the other side is delayed is a maroon.

What you said in the post I quoted above is totally different than what you said in the post you claim to be repeating:

If 95% of the time, the cop doesn't give you a ticket when you run a stop sign in front of him, then you probably shouldn't expect to get a ticket when you do it.

I do it all the time, and expect that I won't get a ticket, because that is what's normal here. If I everdo get a ticket, I probably won't try to dispute it, because I'd have no grounds to do so, but the ticket was still unexpected.

Appeal. You're not wasting anyone's time. The court is there because you pay taxes. Whether you did it or not is irrelevant. You are entitled to be there.

By showing up, being dressed properly, etc, and being very polite you can ask the judge to reduce the fine. Explain that you can't afford it. If you explain that you could afford the fine if the judge could set up a payment plan (he can't) the judge might believe that you really can't afford it and reduce it substantially. Additionally you can also offer/ask if the judge would be willing to let you take a safety class put on by the League of American Bicyclists instead of the fine. Come prepared with a set of class dates. I'd be willing to bet that you could walk away with no fine at all and no class.

If you want to be tricky, find out what the last possible date/time is to delay the hearing. Do so at that point. Often the PO won't get word and will show up to find the hearing has been moved. Then before the 2nd date do the same if you can (sometimes you can only postpone once). When you finally show up, the PO is less likely to be there.

Yes he can. This happens to half the people who show up for traffic court, every time I've been there (I've contested a few speeding tickets, back when I used to drive a modified Mustang).

Anyway, if you go into a California traffic court and ask for a payment plan, they'll be happy to give you one. They'll also be happy to give you community service where you do enough work to pay off the fine at minimum wage.

I've used that tactic before. While he might be able to, when he finds out that you'd need three months to pay off $100, he might throw some pitty out and get rid of the fine.

If you get a ticket (ANY ticket), do the following:

write the following across the face of the ticket:

" “Receipt of your offer of contract is acknowledged and hereby returned for discharge and closure for
your failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted. I do not wish to contract with you. date, BY:
your autograph, agent”.


and then mail it to them within a day or two of getting the ticket.

you will never have to pay any ticket again if you do this each and every time you get a ticket.

so far i have 9 parking tickets dealt with in this manner, and one helmet ticket.

Do you live in a place where the police don't make you sign the ticket when they give it to you? Sure, they just leave parking tickets on your car, but they give you pretty much every other ticket in person, and won't let you leave without signing the ticket.

^ i've never signed a ticket in my life. The only writing i put on a ticket is the above sentence ^

All, thanks for the great responses. I actually did some research into the topic and San Francisco at least has this great program called Project 20, whereby one can do community service instead of pay the fine with cash (I think one of you mentioned this in one of the recent responses).

I think I am going to take that route. I've never heard of such a program before, but it sounds like a brilliant policy on the city's part. It works out for us cyclists too because not only do we have to fork out 100 bills for a minor violation, but we can also help out the local bike clubs.

The San Francisco Bike Coalition has some great info regarding bike tickets/project 20 on their website: www.sfbike.org

Anyone checking out this thread live in the Bay Area? I'd love to get some input from folks who have done this program option before.

Keep the great discussions coming.

Cheers,

Dave

Where do you live? In Maryland, failure to accept the ticket and sign that you acknowledge receipt of the ticket will result in arrest.

Fail!

Just ignore him.. this is an insane legal "scam" that certain people are obsessed with. The govnt was sold out and incorperated, the federal law does not cover you, only your STRAWMAN "agent", ie the enumeration of your self (social security number) as an asset and not your physical body, and anytime the fed govnt makes you sign anything, instead sell them your autograph or refuse to acknowledge their jurisdiction over your state blah blah blah.

Its tired and now well known and several people have spent jailtime trying to adhere to this philosophy. Its almost cultish. I would recommend against taking their advice or even replying to them.

Where in the city did this happen, Dave?

In the Presidio last week, U.S. Park Service police were ticketing cyclists who failed to come to a complete stop at a four-way intersection.

It worked like this: One officer had his car parked alongside the side of a building near the intersection. If he observed a cyclist not coming to a complete stop at the intersection, he radioed that info to two other officers further down the hill. Those officers would then stop the cyclist and issue a ticket.

Yes, I was one of those who got a ticket.

The intersection is on a downhill grade, and there were no cars there waiting, so I basically slowed to what I would describe as a "functional stop" -- I didn't unclip and put my foot down, but I braked to a point where my forward progress was negligible for at least a couple of seconds.

When the officers down the hill waved me over and told me I had run a stop sign, I thought maybe there was a new sign closer to where they were I had completely missed. No, they meant the one further up the hill.

I knew that I hadn't put a foot down, but I decided to ride back to the first officer and ask why he gave me a ticket. Basically, he said there was only one kind of stop -- a complete stop -- and that I had not come to a complete stop.

As we were talking, another cyclist -- a woman with panniers on a hybrid -- rolls very slowly through the stop sign. I watch the officer call her in. I then asked him if they were ticketing cars too. He said they were ticketing all vehicles that didn't come to a complete stop.

About 30 seconds after that, a car rolls through the intersection without coming to a complete stop. "Are you going to ticket that car?" I asked.

"I didn't see it," the officer replied.

I replied, "OK, well, I'm just going to hang out here a bit and watch the intersection with you."

The officer didn't reply. Then he made a call on his radio, said something I didn't catch, and drove away.

I was just doing loops through the Presidio that day, so at that point I continued my ride. Fifteen or twenty minutes later, I was back at the spot where the first officer had been, and now there was a new officer there. Actually, it's one of the ones from further down the hill.

I started watching the intersection again. Sure enough, a car rolls through the stop sign.

"Are you going to ticket that car?" I ask.

The new officer says, "I didn't see it. I was talking on my radio."

Another minute passes. Another car rolls through the intersection. (There is a lot more car traffic than bike traffic there. Most of the cars came to a complete stop, but cars that didn't were hardly rare. In ten minutes or so of watching, I observed at least four that rolled through pretty blatantly.)

"What about that one?" I asked.

The second cop fired up his engine and drove away.

I am frustrated by what appeared to be the selective enforcement in effect, and am interested if anyone else has had similar experiences, especially if they occured in the Presidio...

+1. Toronto has a love affair with 4-way stops. If you don't want to ride on crazy narrow-laned arterials, you'll have to cope with stop signs every 300 feet. You're going to stop for each and every one? Yeah, right. Come and ride here. I predict your patience will run out somewhere around the beginning of the second mile...

Wow, ConstantRider, that's a pretty outrageous discrimination and blatant lies by the police. Funny though how you managed to chase two cops away in the space of a few minutes.

I would have asked for badge numbers. Why not start making some calls?

YES! It was in Presidio, right on Embarcadero after you descend from the golden gate bridge. I did the functional stop thing as well, but the cop was not concerned with any reasoning. When I realized that the citation was 100 bucks, I tried to VERY politely talk with him about a compromise, and when I did he took my ticket back, signed his name where I was to sign mine, and moved on. It was quite a disheartening experience, and yes, I did learn a lesson: that I should count my blessings for not leading the sad and pitiful life that that cop must lead. We live in one of the most amazing cities in the world and its disheartening to experience these things here.

-Dave

True. It makes about as much sense to get to work sweaty when you can add power assist to your bicycle and arrive at work fresh....

You didn't detail the circumstances surrounding the citation that you received in your original post. It definitely sounds like the cops seem to be specifically targeting cyclists in this area and issuing unecessary citations. Pretty lame!

Oh, is that one of those "tax protest" schemes that say the IRS doesn't have the legal authority to make people pay income tax?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester

You were wrong, but I'd still fight it. For a nominal fee (well you are in SF, so it may not be so nominal!) and some of your time, you may just walk. At the least, you can admit to the infraction, and ask forgiveness. You'd be suprised.

... Brad

I spoke with a Lieutenant with the U.S. Park Service police today. My intent was to find out how to get access to their records, to see if the police who'd been issuing citations had cited any cars that day, or if they'd just cited cyclists.

The lieutenant was actually pretty willing to hear me out and very candid, and he basically said that it is their right to selectively enforce the law like that. Nonetheless, I'm going to contact a few other people/institutions in an effort to verify what he told me.