LittleBigMan

You guys are selling me in internal hubs very effectively (not that I'm dissatisfied with derailleurs, but...)

Leisesturm

In just one lap of NYC's Central Park loop I manage to use every single gear of my 9spd derailleur equipped folder. When the GF and I do the same loop on our tandem with three rings up front and the same 9spd in back I do the same thing. That said, the numerous posts that mentioned the ability to shift into a good starting out gear whilst stopped pretty much sum up why internal geared hubs have a place in the world and should continue to do so. A three speed hub no matter how bulletproof IMO is hardly worth the bother. Eight speeds and you are now talking and if the price quoted above is accurate I am wondering why internal hubs continue to labor in relative obscurity. But think about if for a minute, the average eight or even nine (ten?) speed hub works in partnership with two or three rings up front and this is hardly seen as an excessive gear range. One might still need a front derailleur with the internal hub and therefore will need a rear derailleur as well for chain wrap purposes. But what about the Sachs hub with the front derailleur internal in the hub and eight teeth and a rear derailleur? Pretty jiggy. You can drop three front rings while stopped and still use the rear derailleur for the 10%+ shifts that you have to make alll the time to keep in the powerband.

H

LittleBigMan

Around here, I would need at least a double up front (much prefer a triple,) but the internal rear might have possibilities.

paulwwalters

Certainly when the other option is a single speed they'll be much better, right?

tcs

So conventional wisdom says. The most careful test I've ever seen on the subject, by Dr. Chester Kyle and Frank Berto, begins on page three of this IHPVA journal:

https://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf

Best,
TCS

unkchunk

Maybe you could try reading some of those posts.

wahoonc

To me the ultimate touring setup would be a triple front with a Rolhoff rear. One advantage to this is that with careful planning you have no duplicate gears and they are ALL usable unlike a dérailleur system, where you may have overlap gears and you usually can't use the large chain ring/large cog, small chain ring/small cog combo's...Never ridden Central Park, but I do routinely ride a 6 mile loop around my house on my 3 speed that has a total elevation gain of around 300 feet, most of it in the middle 2 miles.

Aaron

BikeManDan

Why I like internally geared hub:

• Chainguards; I can easily use a chainguard with IGHs or SS or even better, a full chaincase
• Chainline; perfect chainline all the time
• Maintenance; very little maintenance and when it is necessary, its easy
• Shifting when stopped; useful in the city, get to the lowest gear at a stop to save your knees
• Less prone to failure; can be argued but for me, derailleurs are prone to fail. I've had issues with jockey wheels suddenly coming out, hangers breaking/bending, derailleur itself snapping, etc.

Why I don't like internally geared hubs:

• Heavy
• Expensive
• Difficult to remove and install the wheel
• Limited shifter options, usually forced to use one kind
• Parasitic drivetrain loss

Jeffbeerman2

I recently switched to a Nexus 8

I love being able to shift while stopped

I love being able to use a full chain guard.

I hate having to stop pedaling (or at least pedal "lighter") in order to shift.

The gear range on the 8 is wide, well thought out, and perfect for me without using a front derailleur

I like the red line in 4th gear which makes tuning up the shifter cable super-easy.

I'm not crazy about the weight but I put it on a grocery-getter/commuter which is heavy anyhow

I'm not crazy about the extra effort in removing/replacing the rear wheel, but I ride very durable tires and flats are a distant memory

It's perfect for the bike I have it on, but would be of no use on my road bike where weight and efficiency are more important than a clean drivetrain and clean trousers

wahoonc

Interesting read...I would like to see more testing. From what I gathered the overall efficiency between the best and the worse is only about 3%...I can think of a lot of things that would cause more power loss than that Also interesting was the note on using oil in the internal geared hubs vs grease...I would say SA knew what they were doing...80 years ago

Aaron

ax0n

The rohloff 14 has amost as wide a gear range as a triple-crank mountain bike. I'd imagine with the right size chainring, you'd have no problem with the rohloff whether climbing or speeding by. Other than being down on cash. Can you say cha-ching?!

Wordbiker

I didn't go into great detail describing the potential performance advantages of internal gearing, trying to keep it simple and to the point, but since such good background info was privided by tcs...I will now.

I know many in this forum frown upon the sport of Downhill, but a few interesting developments have arisen due to the brutal environments this type of bike is used in. Just a cursory glance at the equipment will show that retaining the chain is a huge concern for a race won or lost by tenths of a second. Conventional derailleur components are derived from XC riding and racing, and need the help of aftermarket retention devices to keep the chain intact through a severe beating. One might think that an internal hub would be a perfect solution to chain slap...and it has been tried even by some big manufacturers and well-known riders, though there are issues. Here's Hans Rey, circa 1983 on an S-A 3-speed:



Although nearly anyone can employ an internal hub on a conventional bike's rear wheel, this causes a few problems, especially for suspended designs. With a straight chainline the rear triangle movement would either snap a chain or make it go slack depending upon pivot placement unless a tensioner is used, defeating the purpose of retaining the chain. Yes, the swingarm could rotate around the bottom bracket, but then chain torque would compress the suspension. Tricky to deal with.

The second major issue is unsuspended weight. Even the best internal hubs weigh a pound or two more than even a heavy duty derailleur hub. I'm not talking about the overall system weight versus derailleur, just the rear hub. This extra weight is in a very bad place for suspension. For racing speeds, keeping the unsuspended weight to a minimum allows the suspension to react quicker and keep the bike tracking the ground instead of packing up or rebounding wildly. If that concept is tough, picture how a metronome works:



As the weight is moved up or down, the speed of the metronome is changed. The same thing would apply if the weight was unmoved but increased: the metronome slows down.

The most elegant (though also not fully developed) solution that I've seen is the gearbox concept. Centered around the crank, the weight is placed where it is suspended and a lightweight singlespeed wheel can be employed at the rear for lightning quick reaction. The fact that a few big hitters have all worked on a similar concept (with varied success) tells me that once the bugs get worked out, this could be our future.

Here's Honda's proto:



Hayes:



GT's:




Suntour:

Industrial

I was directly replying to a person who said an internal hub would be good for mountain biking. This is a discussion forum and things are allowed to go off topic from time to time right?

I really like rohloff hubs but they are pretty expensive. I'm guessing that there really isn't that much more maintanence involved with a normal setup compared to internal gears when it comes to mountain biking. Everything gets trashed after a good ride and needs to be cleaned, re-lubed and checked. It's not like internal gears keep dirt/leaves/rocks/branches from getting everywhere. I have no idea how they would hold up for extreme drops. Using an internal gear setup with a front derailluerer seems to be defeating the purpose somewhat. I can see potential for a downhill bike to have internal gears but only if it's made for like 80% down, 20% up.

I'd give it a shot if it wasn't so expensive or heavy. I'm not a pro rider but I'd don't want to pay more to handicap myself for almost no upside.

wahoonc

It is my understanding the main reason for the development of the Rohloff was for touring. However it has been used in many off road events. Read the article by Andy Blance from Thorn Cycles. I agree they are expensive, but IMHO this is one of those case where you get what you pay for. They are built in a small facility by trained personnel in a first world country. As far as the weight is concerned, I don't think they are way heavier than a total dérailleur system, if you factor in ALL the components.

FWIW I have had a couple of long walks home after trashing a dérailleur system when riding my MTB, the first time the cage disintegrated, the second the dérailleur broke at the hanger bolt. If I had taken my chain breaker with me I would have been able to shorten the chain and limp home...live and learn.

Aaron

ThinLine

I have a swobo otis with a i-motion sram 3 speed system. Functions with precision, although could use a 8 speed. Made in germany and very rugged. Clean uncluttered design which is just a little beefier than a freewheel single.

Ornery

120 years after the first safety bike was introduced, and we're still using something as crude as a derailleur! Sheesh, the name says it all:

derailThank God for companies like Rohloff. Maybe they or somebody else will finally develope a proper CVT or lighter gearbox to replace this primitive relic.

Leisesturm

Don't go there... 4000 years after the first condom was invented...

H

Sluggo

Back in my bike shop days in the early '80's, we did a fairly regular business overhauling worn SA hubs. Most had been on the road for twenty or twenty-five years, and most of those had hardly seen the inside of a bike shop for their entire lives.

Many of the people who spend time on BF enjoy tinkering with their bikes. But for those who don't, internal gears are much more reliable. In the harsh world of commuting, derailleurs hang out there like a naked guy in a knife fight.

Ornery

Whoa, that paints a picture!

Doug5150

Shifting under load is said to be bad for them--but you can "idle" the cranks (where you keep on pedal forwards, but at a slower rate than the bike is moving, so there's no actual load on the hub) and they shift good.
~

Mooo

Yeah, it's kind of like a manual transmission in a car. I actually like it.

Also, the ones I've ridden don't make as much noise as a derailler. I like that too.
(about 1100 miles each on Nexus4 and AW, and around 750 on a Sturmey 5 speed on a Dahon).

climbhoser

Y'know, everybody complains that you have to let off the gas to shift an IGH...I don't remember the last time I could maintain a heavy load with a derailleur and it would shift.

Seriously, that's the same dang problem with a derailleur. I've ridden Dura-Ace, 105, XTR, XT and LX and not a one of them would let me shift while jamming the pedals under a load.

Brian Ratliff

I think the maintainance issues with derailleur systems are a bit overblown. I've gone years without adjusting a derailleur on my bikes. I use dry lube which is not wax (prolink) and clean the drivetrain by dripping prolink on the chain to soften stuff up and running the chain through a rag to wipe off grit every couple weeks and it seems to work well.

That said, the need to pedal during shifting in the stop and go traffic of a city makes riding a derailleur bike difficult to ride in the city. My commuter has downtube shifters for this reason; it partially solves the stop-go shifting problem while keeping most of the advantages of derailleur systems. But I've considered internal gearing as well. The cost and the lack of a suitable platform has detered me thus far from experimenting with it.

1ply

Do people look forward at all while riding in a city? If you do, chances are that you will know that you're coming to a stop soon and will shift if desired before you do. The times when you are flying at 25+mph and have to skid to a stop because of some unforeseen circumstance should be fairly rare.

Having not ridden through a winter yet I'll venture to say that chain maintenance can't be as big a deal as some on here will have you believe. Wipe off the gunk and drip some lube on. And if at the end of the winter the chain and cassette need replacing, so be it. You've saved $2000 by riding your bike through the winter, now time to spend $100 for some new parts.

Brian Ratliff

^^^
Slowing and stopping with traffic can make for a situation where you are constantly shifting. If you have to pedal simultainiously, it makes it that much more of a PITA. Brifters are a serious disadvantage IMO in tight city riding due to their inability (all brands) to shift up the entire cassette in one motion - downtube or bar end is easier, and the wider spacing of internal gears, along with the ability to shift at a stop (you might spend as much time stopped as not) is also is a solution. Out where I usually am, in the suburbs or rural/exurban roads, then brifters and the latest in road bike technology are clearly better, though downtube is adequate. I keep downtube shifters on my commuter so I can transition to many different environments, all which can be had inside a 20 mile radius in the Portland, OR area.

If you can deal with the hills (both up and down), fixed is, IMHO, clearly the best in tight traffic because of the precise speed regulation and slow speed control that a fixed drivetrain offers.