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Originally Posted by iltb-2
(Post 6087046)
Whaa, Whaa, Whaa! Yep, same old tiny group of Road Warriors specifying that their bicycling niche and preferred equipment is the paragon of bicycling virtue, that any and all Real Commuters would be wise to emulate under all conditions and scenarios. And always repeating it over and over in oh-so-many threads in oh-so-many variations of the same self satisfied smugness; and always objecting when their parochialism is noted.
I never said that I disagreed with that point of view. Quite the opposite, in fact. You'd see it if you bothered to read. What's amusing is that you always say the same old stuff. Using exact same expressions. Even if it's perfectly correct, doesn't it get a little tiresome? Don't you ever want to inject a little variety in your speeches?
Originally Posted by iltb-2
(Post 6087094)
I don't doubt such commuters could be found somewhere but I doubt if there are "a helluva lot of" them. Beat up dirt roads and commutes of 24 miles or more each way with brutal climbs? Just what percentage of bicyclists or potential cyclists do you believe regularly commute under those or similar conditions? 1/1000? 1/10,000?
Of course it is possible to alter the equation if you should choose to only consider the more righteous cyclists like yourself, and ignore all those pesky immigrants, college students, school kids etc. who cycle daily to their work or school or chosen destinations but don't fit the "Experienced Cyclist" profile. Let's consider those "pesky" immigrants (funny that I should find myself pesky, but I suppose some people do have a negative self-image; perhaps you're projecting). Do you think they (the ones you have in mind anyway - working at minimum wage jobs - BTW, don't you think you're kind of offending immigrants here and in your other posts?) will shell out five hundred to a thousand bucks for a "commuting" bike just to have fenders and a dynamo-powered light? And leave it locked outside all day. And what kind of high school kid will want to be caught riding a grandma bike - wouldn't he rather ride an impractical but "cool" BMX biek? You're just as patronizing here as those "experienced cyclists" you take so much pleasure in despising. |
They don't seem to have any proper commuters here in Australia. But thanks for the web link. I like that Raleigh with the bar end shifters.
In my case I have three bikes. MTB, two racing bikes. I ended up commuting on the MTB then the racer as I grew into cycling. If I had known what I was doing I would have bought a commuter up front. As it is my last racer does not have anywhere to put a pannier. I think that this is typical of a lot of people - they don't really know what they want, so they buy something general. By the time they work out what they really need, it is too late. To be honest, I would like one of each genre (MTB, Commuter, racer, training racer) - that would be perfect for any ride I choose to do. |
Originally Posted by M_S
(Post 6087887)
Dude, she just said that comuting bikes can be a wide variety of contraptions based on need/want. You're just putting words in her mouth.
I responded to her criticism of the nature of my posting and I referenced that specific post, not some other post she made before or after. As a matter of fact, the other post does jive with mine as far as one size/one type of commuting equipment does not fit all. If I had read the other post first, I would have also commented on her hypocrisy in that it is apparently A-OK for her to make a point but not for me to do the same. |
Originally Posted by chephy
(Post 6087985)
Gosh darling, you don't even bother to read what's there, do you?...
I never said that I disagreed with that point of view. Quite the opposite, in fact. You'd see it if you bothered to read. What's amusing is that you always say the same old stuff. Using exact same expressions. Even if it's perfectly correct, doesn't it get a little tiresome? Don't you ever want to inject a little variety in your speeches?
Originally Posted by chephy
(Post 6087985)
If you consider the world at large, most people who ride bikes for transportation probably ride them on dirt roads. Well - a nontrivial portion of them anyhow.
The OP was about commuter bikes offered for the North American market, not the "world at large". I again point out that I doubt that many North Americans or First World residents) are contemplating bike commuting regularly for any serious distance on mountain trails or dirt roads. I suspect that the type of commuting bikes bragged on by their proud "experienced bicyclist" owners on BF's commuting forum would be hard to find being used by commuters anywhere else but North America (and maybe the English speaking world at large that is not in Asia or Africa).
Originally Posted by chephy
(Post 6087985)
Let's consider those "pesky" immigrants (funny that I should find myself pesky, but I suppose some people do have a negative self-image; perhaps you're projecting). Do you think they (the ones you have in mind anyway - working at minimum wage jobs - BTW, don't you think you're kind of offending immigrants here and in your other posts?) will shell out five hundred to a thousand bucks for a "commuting" bike just to have fenders and a dynamo-powered light? And leave it locked outside all day. And what kind of high school kid will want to be caught riding a grandma bike - wouldn't he rather ride an impractical but "cool" BMX biek? You're just as patronizing here as those "experienced cyclists" you take so much pleasure in despising.
The OP pointed out the trend for the LBS' to at least consider offering bikes for a consumer that is not necessarily interested in bikes optimized or designed for competition (i.e comfort over speed, convenience/reliability over bling, glitz and gee whiz materials). The next step, and the big step, is for the mass marketeers of North America to offer and promote at the big box stores the equivalent of the English/Schwinn 3 speed of decades past, or an Electra Townie type bike at half the price (or less) found on less practical "commuting" bikes at the toney LBS. |
Yet another good thread tainted by bickering. :(
Even in this Commuting forum, many prefer speed over function. There's definitely a bias against north road bars. But I agree with the comment that most transportation bicyclists doing most of their rides would be better off with one of the OP's listed bikes than a roadie. |
Originally Posted by ft_critical
(Post 6088568)
I think that this is typical of a lot of people - they don't really know what they want, so they buy something general. By the time they work out what they really need, it is too late.
Stock, it's a heck of a bike, and it's even marketed as an "urban" bike -- but I'm left wondering if I would have gotten something different if I knew then what I know now. My LBS recently got a couple of these Bianchi Valles -- they look like what I'd get now: http://bianchiusa.com/08_valle.html
Originally Posted by ft_critical
To be honest, I would like one of each genre (MTB, Commuter, racer, training racer) - that would be perfect for any ride I choose to do.
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Originally Posted by thdave
(Post 6088840)
Yet another good thread tainted by bickering. :(
Even in this Commuting forum, many prefer speed over function. There's definitely a bias against north road bars. But I agree with the comment that most transportation bicyclists doing most of their rides would be better off with one of the OP's listed bikes than a roadie. It's all a moot point, anyways. I like a lot of the bikes posted and think that they're exactly what some people want or need. The Milano has always struck me as particularly classy. With that I will take my leave from the coming flame war. |
Whatever you think of the new Raleighs, it's really nice to see Raleigh making bikes that could not just as easily have been BikesDirect bikes. New Schwinn was in that boat until they caught onto the retro/custom market that they're perfect for and now they're something much more than another old name on outsourced bikes.
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Originally Posted by chephy
(Post 6086128)
All these "commuter" bikes are labelled thus under a set of very restrictive assumptions, such as that a commute can only be short(ish), flatt(ish), and that the commuter will prefer to ride in an upright position wearing his work clothes while having a ton of stuff in the panniers. There are a helluva lot of commutes out there that don't fit that description. There are commutes that involve riding on beat-up dirt roads and would be best served by an MTB; there are commutes that span dozens and dozens of miles and involve brutal climbs - gotta be a masochist to attempt it on an Electra Townie (every day!).
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Originally Posted by zowie
(Post 6089668)
If you want to mass-produce a bike, you have to aim it at a substantial market. The longer, hillier, worse paved, and special-clothes-needed a commute becomes, the fewer people that will be willing to do it, so the assumption is reasonable.
If you go out to 10 miles, now you've got a pool of 14 potential commuters. I fall within this group and so do all the other people who commute with any regularity. As somebody else mentioned, for me speed is part of function. I didn't intentionally move so close to work so that I could spend an hour and a half on the road each day. A 40 minute one way commute is about the limit for me and I'd much rather keep it under 30. I'm guessing I'm not the only one and that time spent on the commute is a barrier that keeps a significant amount of people off a bike. A criteria the OP used for bike selection was whether or not the bike came with fenders. I don't really have a problem with the criteria and it did yield one road bike suitable for longer commutes (the Raleigh). It's too bad that that criteria didn't yield a wider variety of bike styles to cover a wider variety of commutes. |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 6043204)
I've heard the term "city bike" too and I'm not sure how they differ.
I suppose it's good that they think there's a large enough market to target a specific type of bike at. Also if a non-cyclist were to decide that commuting by bike was something they wanted to do, this category gives them an idea of what they might want to look for in a bike (racks, etc). On the other hand, I don't think that style of bike is the best choice for somebody with a longish commute, but that's probably not the group they're aiming at. "Commuter bike" is a bit incongruous, because any bike can be used for commuting---and commuting is defined as riding to work. I know a guy who commutes on a Madone, another who does it on a 'mart MTB. My Gunnar is set up pretty functionally---lights, fenders, rack, panniers, but nobody would classify it as a "commuter bike". It's a road bike, and a fairly high end one, at that. "City bike" makes it seem as if these bikes are only useful for short hops in an urban setting. What would be a better term? "Utility bike"? "Practical bike"? |
Originally Posted by zowie
(Post 6089668)
If you want to mass-produce a bike, you have to aim it at a substantial market. The longer, hillier, worse paved, and special-clothes-needed a commute becomes, the fewer people that will be willing to do it, so the assumption is reasonable.
There is a reason why virtually no one rides such bikes for transportations in Toronto. However, the old 10-speeds, older MTBs, and department store bike-shaped objects rule.
Originally Posted by iltb-2
Baloney, you had no problem identifying who are the Non "experienced" cyclists that I was discussing. The commuting cyclists that do not fit the profile of the BF brand "Experienced Cyclist" commuter are unlikely to be doing any shopping at the typical LBS found in the US. Their kind, seeking basic inexpensive rides, over typical commuting/utility distances have been unwelcome at such establishments for decades. When was the last English or American brand inexpensive one or 3 speed prominently displayed or marketed at an American LBS' - the late 70's?
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 6090175)
I didn't intentionally move so close to work so that I could spend an hour and a half on the road each day. A 40 minute one way commute is about the limit for me and I'd much rather keep it under 30.
Originally Posted by Schwinnrider
(Post 6093209)
"Commuter bike" is a bit incongruous, because any bike can be used for commuting---and commuting is defined as riding to work.
It's like how people would drive anything to work, whether it's a Civic, Corvette, or F-150 pickup. But, the Civic would quickly get labeled as a "commuter car", because it's not a high-powered sports car like the 'Vette, nor is it a stump-pulling beast like the F-150. The Civic was built with commuting in mind, not drag racing or bale hauling. Maybe a more apt term would be "errand bike", although running errands isn't always entertaining, either. To go from what chephy is saying, I wouldn't ride a nice bike to work if I couldn't take it inside. |
Originally Posted by Schwinnrider
(Post 6093209)
What would be a better term? "Utility bike"? "Practical bike"?
That said, I have no problem with City bike. You're not going to find many people cruising through the country on these -- and I think most suburbanites would say they live in the city. -------- chephy, I don't believe that the people who been riding around on cheaper used bikes are the target market for manufacturers anyway. Most of these people have made their decision and few will be swayed by model design, regardless of price. I haven't bought a new bike since the 90's, so I'm somewhat in that category as well. That said, both of the bikes I ride to work were purchased used (at a good deal) for more than the most expensive bike in this list. If, and it's a big if, the time comes when transportational cycling becomes more mainstream, I do not believe that cost will be a problem. Compared to what people are currently spending on transportation, even the most expensive "commuter" bike is affordable. |
Originally Posted by chephy
(Post 6093665)
Anyway, I doubt I (or anyone else on this board) will hear anything from you that I haven't already. Good thing this forum has an Ignore list. Good night.
BTW try not to be like the other ignoramuses who brag about whom they ignore yet fell compelled to continue offering gratuitous smug comments (like your http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.p...9&postcount=52) on the "ignored" poster and his posts (invariably taken out of context) for their failure to conform to the Conventional Wisdom of the BF Group Think Posse. Goodnight Ms Hypocrite. |
Originally Posted by dave.lloyd
(Post 6084974)
My bike is porky, upright and built like a panzer. It came with fenders, chain case, generator light (which unfortunately works like crap under 40F), a rack, a rear frame lock (perfect for a quick pop in) and eight sweet, sweet internal gears. It's a Trek L200 which was imported into this country for a while, but Trek stopped selling due to lack of interest. Trek still makes these, and bikes like it, for the Dutch market.
Basically, I see my bike as a short distance car replacement. It's reliable, low maintenance, tough, it can haul crap (better now with a double leg kickstand so it doesn't tip over when the rear rack is loaded down with beer), and I'm pretty well able to use it for just about any short distance trip I used to use my car for. I originally bought this bike to replace my old rigid frame Specialized HardRock for commuting. Knowing what I do now, I might be tempted to get a cross bike instead for just commuting. But this bike works out great as a car replacement. Honestly, the relaxed and upright geometry, chain case and the ability to wear normal clothes on this bike plays a huge part there. It's true, though, you can use any bike for commuting. Use what you like and what feels comfy to you. If wearing bib shorts and your team jersey gets you out of your car and onto your Litespeed, great! If being able to wear a suit and tie and pedal along at a relaxed pace does it, good for you! If you get yourself from home to work on it, it's a commuter bike. Getting my butt out of a car and onto my bike for my commute has been one of the most positive experiences in my life, probably right behind getting married and having kids. It's opened up a completely new way of thinking for me and if someone needs some different motivation to have that same door opened for them, the let 'em do it. That said, I like city bikes and utility bikes. Personally, I think that a lot of people are a bit turned off thinking that they'll have to wear bike shorts and a jersey to hop on a bike. I don't think it occurs to most people that they can eliminate a large number of their under two to five mile trips by using a bike because of the perception that they have to change clothes to get on a bike, unlike their car where they can just turn the key and go. Personally, I don't expect people who live more than three miles away from work to be converted to biking to work. Yes, the 6.75 each way I do is easy and enjoyable for me but it's a perception thing for lots of people. But maybe, just maybe, people could be convinced to use their bike for a trip to the drugstore, to pick up a few items at the grocery store (the one closest to my house has a crappy bike rack, but I always get great parking) and then maybe they'll start to expand their horizons. The mindset of driving everywhere has tremendous inertia. I don't expect sudden changes, just little ones over time. But if I can be talked out of my car and onto a bike, pretty well anyone can. Maybe bikes that espouse a simple 'get on and ride' idea can be a part of that. |
I remember Trek dealers pretty much taking a bath on the L200. I understand not a lot of dealers stocked them, and the ones that did had them on the floor for a LONG time. Specialized sold a Globe which was similar, but must not have sold well either. Is there a market for a complete utility bike package? I think dealers are wary of stocking one, mainly because they lose the additional sales of accessories. Bike shops don't actually make much profit on bikes, right? I've always heard they have more of a markup on accessories, and if you can sell someone fenders, a rack, panniers, and a light that's a decent chunk of money.
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Originally Posted by Schwinnrider
(Post 6098280)
Is there a market for a complete utility bike package?
I think dealers are wary of stocking one, mainly because they lose the additional sales of accessories. Bike shops don't actually make much profit on bikes, right? I've always heard they have more of a markup on accessories, and if you can sell someone fenders, a rack, panniers, and a light that's a decent chunk of money. |
Originally Posted by toddvc
(Post 6041181)
I recently posted a page with pictures, descriptions and approximate retail prices of 2008-model commuting bikes here.
The Giant Suede Coasting of course has Shimano's auto-shifting 3-speed Coasting geartrain, not a singlespeed coaster brake. The Schwinn Coffee (and Cream) has f/r caliper brakes, not a coaster brake. HTH, TCS |
Originally Posted by tcs
(Post 6099971)
The Amsterdam does not have a full chaincase. It's a open back chainguard styled to look like a chaincase.
The Giant Suede Coasting of course has Shimano's auto-shifting 3-speed Coasting geartrain, not a singlespeed coaster brake. The Schwinn Coffee (and Cream) has f/r caliper brakes, not a coaster brake. HTH, TCS Schwinn's website shows the Coffee(and Cream) specced with f/r calipers AND a coaster brake. Weird spec. http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/...il.php?id=1027 |
Originally Posted by Schwinnrider
(Post 6098280)
I think dealers are wary of stocking one, mainly because they lose the additional sales of accessories. Bike shops don't actually make much profit on bikes, right? I've always heard they have more of a markup on accessories, and if you can sell someone fenders, a rack, panniers, and a light that's a decent chunk of money.
The day of reckoning may come when Walmart/Target etc. start actively promoting a reasonably low priced commuting bike well equipped like the Huffy/Schwinn/Sears one and 3 speed bikes of old. They can even update the gearing with a derailler set up and still keep the practicality. |
Originally Posted by thdave
(Post 6088840)
Yet another good thread tainted by bickering. :(
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Are you really hoping for the kind of disposable garbage that Walmart would bring to the table?
I'm already skeptical about the quality of the Schwinn line, and I know from experience that the Amsterdam is overpriced - as with most neo-retro products. |
Originally Posted by mwrobe1
(Post 6100355)
Its beyond bickering...it's a pissing contest.
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Originally Posted by JeffS
(Post 6100364)
Are you really hoping for the kind of disposable garbage that Walmart would bring to the table?
I'm already skeptical about the quality of the Schwinn line, and I know from experience that the Amsterdam is overpriced - as with most neo-retro products. Where do you think the great majority of bikes are sold in this country? I'll give you a hint, if the LBS' disappeared, most people, at least those not interested in the latest enthusiast models, wouldn't even notice. I'll make it even easier, I believe the current figure is that about 85% of new bikes are sold in department stores. |
Originally Posted by mwrobe1
(Post 6100355)
Its beyond bickering...it's a pissing contest.
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Too bad there aren't more step-thru frames being marketed as commuter/city/urban/errand/grocery-getter/etc bikes. Swinging one's leg over a regular frame and a couple sacks of groceries (or a similar cargo load) on a rear rack is a real pain.
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Originally Posted by iltb-2
(Post 6100422)
Where do you think the great majority of bikes are sold in this country? I'll give you a hint, if the LBS' disappeared, most people, at least those not interested in the latest enthusiast models, wouldn't even notice. I'll make it even easier, I believe the current figure is that about 85% of new bikes are sold in department stores.
What's your point? Mine is that the low-end market is not capable of producing a bike suitable for extended transportation use. The great majority are also not ridden more than 50 miles in their entire lifetime. I thought this was a discussion about commuting, not about garage ornamentation. Your attempts to speak for the "common man" are always good for a laugh. |
Originally Posted by JeffS
(Post 6100612)
What's your point? Mine is that the low-end market is not capable of producing a bike suitable for extended transportation use.
Put new tires on any inexpensive 30 year old Huffy, Columbia, Sears, Firestone, Montgomery Ward, etc one or three speed and they are good to go for another 30 years for the typical city cycling that is actually done or would even be considered practical by most any person considering bike commuting. Doubly true for any bike built prior to the 10 speed "racer" fad of the 70's. Actually I was in Walmart yesterday and saw several one speed balloon tired bikes with full fenders for about $80 that would serve the commuting purpose for a large slice of the typical commutes of both adults and youth. The only maintenance that should be required is checking the air in the tires on occasion. I don't buy into the propaganda put out by the LBS claque who bad mouth any and all products that do not have name brand/LBS provenance. My point is that the extreme long distance commuter, all weather condition commuter or the cyclist who will commute regularly on long dirt roads and long steep hills is the exception, not the rule in the real world, though the opposite may be true for the BF commuting expert population. And those typical real world commuting cyclists do not need, nor necessarily get any significant value for their money, from up scale products targeted for a tiny slice of the total population - well to do cycling enthusiasts. |
Originally Posted by iltb-2
(Post 6100866)
Baloney! If those bikes aren't ridden more than 50 miles there is no practical reason they couldn't. What makes you think the owners would have cycled more if they had bought, and were bent over like pretzels, on fancy "high quality" enthusiasts' machines?
Put new tires on any inexpensive 30 year old Huffy, Columbia, Sears, Firestone, Montgomery Ward, etc one or three speed and they are good to go for another 30 years for the typical city cycling that is actually done or would even be considered practical by most any person considering bike commuting. Doubly true for any bike built prior to the 10 speed "racer" fad of the 70's. Actually I was in Walmart yesterday and saw several one speed balloon tired bikes with full fenders for about $80 that would serve the commuting purpose for a large slice of the typical commutes of both adults and youth. The only maintenance that should be required is checking the air in the tires on occasion. I don't buy into the propaganda put out by the LBS claque who bad mouth any and all products that do not have name brand/LBS provenance. My point is that the extreme long distance commuter, all weather condition commuter or the cyclist who will commute regularly on long dirt roads and long steep hills is the exception, not the rule in the real world, though the opposite may be true for the BF commuting expert population. And those typical real world commuting cyclists do not need, nor necessarily get any significant value for their money, from up scale products targeted for a tiny slice of the total population - well to do cycling enthusiasts. Noone's talking about 30-year old bikes but you. My comments were all specifically directed at the current market. Second, you need to recheck your facts about the average commute distance in the US. The average DRIVE time is around 25 minutes. You're seriously claiming that some walmart singlespeed cruiser is the answer? You've just been caught spewing more vague BS. As usual, your comments about "the people" didn't mean everyone. It's whatever small-town "common man" you've elected yourself spokesperson for. ---- I'm feeling stupid for not putting you on the ignore list as soon as it became obvious you couldn't give up the rhetoric. |
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