2008 commuting bikes -- an overview
02-02-08 | 10:59 AM
#76
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
My bike is porky, upright and built like a panzer. It came with fenders, chain case, generator light (which unfortunately works like crap under 40F), a rack, a rear frame lock (perfect for a quick pop in) and eight sweet, sweet internal gears. It's a Trek L200 which was imported into this country for a while, but Trek stopped selling due to lack of interest. Trek still makes these, and bikes like it, for the Dutch market.
Basically, I see my bike as a short distance car replacement. It's reliable, low maintenance, tough, it can haul crap (better now with a double leg kickstand so it doesn't tip over when the rear rack is loaded down with beer), and I'm pretty well able to use it for just about any short distance trip I used to use my car for.
I originally bought this bike to replace my old rigid frame Specialized HardRock for commuting. Knowing what I do now, I might be tempted to get a cross bike instead for just commuting. But this bike works out great as a car replacement. Honestly, the relaxed and upright geometry, chain case and the ability to wear normal clothes on this bike plays a huge part there.
It's true, though, you can use any bike for commuting. Use what you like and what feels comfy to you. If wearing bib shorts and your team jersey gets you out of your car and onto your Litespeed, great! If being able to wear a suit and tie and pedal along at a relaxed pace does it, good for you! If you get yourself from home to work on it, it's a commuter bike.
Getting my butt out of a car and onto my bike for my commute has been one of the most positive experiences in my life, probably right behind getting married and having kids. It's opened up a completely new way of thinking for me and if someone needs some different motivation to have that same door opened for them, the let 'em do it.
That said, I like city bikes and utility bikes. Personally, I think that a lot of people are a bit turned off thinking that they'll have to wear bike shorts and a jersey to hop on a bike. I don't think it occurs to most people that they can eliminate a large number of their under two to five mile trips by using a bike because of the perception that they have to change clothes to get on a bike, unlike their car where they can just turn the key and go.
Personally, I don't expect people who live more than three miles away from work to be converted to biking to work. Yes, the 6.75 each way I do is easy and enjoyable for me but it's a perception thing for lots of people. But maybe, just maybe, people could be convinced to use their bike for a trip to the drugstore, to pick up a few items at the grocery store (the one closest to my house has a crappy bike rack, but I always get great parking) and then maybe they'll start to expand their horizons.
The mindset of driving everywhere has tremendous inertia. I don't expect sudden changes, just little ones over time. But if I can be talked out of my car and onto a bike, pretty well anyone can. Maybe bikes that espouse a simple 'get on and ride' idea can be a part of that.
Basically, I see my bike as a short distance car replacement. It's reliable, low maintenance, tough, it can haul crap (better now with a double leg kickstand so it doesn't tip over when the rear rack is loaded down with beer), and I'm pretty well able to use it for just about any short distance trip I used to use my car for.
I originally bought this bike to replace my old rigid frame Specialized HardRock for commuting. Knowing what I do now, I might be tempted to get a cross bike instead for just commuting. But this bike works out great as a car replacement. Honestly, the relaxed and upright geometry, chain case and the ability to wear normal clothes on this bike plays a huge part there.
It's true, though, you can use any bike for commuting. Use what you like and what feels comfy to you. If wearing bib shorts and your team jersey gets you out of your car and onto your Litespeed, great! If being able to wear a suit and tie and pedal along at a relaxed pace does it, good for you! If you get yourself from home to work on it, it's a commuter bike.
Getting my butt out of a car and onto my bike for my commute has been one of the most positive experiences in my life, probably right behind getting married and having kids. It's opened up a completely new way of thinking for me and if someone needs some different motivation to have that same door opened for them, the let 'em do it.
That said, I like city bikes and utility bikes. Personally, I think that a lot of people are a bit turned off thinking that they'll have to wear bike shorts and a jersey to hop on a bike. I don't think it occurs to most people that they can eliminate a large number of their under two to five mile trips by using a bike because of the perception that they have to change clothes to get on a bike, unlike their car where they can just turn the key and go.
Personally, I don't expect people who live more than three miles away from work to be converted to biking to work. Yes, the 6.75 each way I do is easy and enjoyable for me but it's a perception thing for lots of people. But maybe, just maybe, people could be convinced to use their bike for a trip to the drugstore, to pick up a few items at the grocery store (the one closest to my house has a crappy bike rack, but I always get great parking) and then maybe they'll start to expand their horizons.
The mindset of driving everywhere has tremendous inertia. I don't expect sudden changes, just little ones over time. But if I can be talked out of my car and onto a bike, pretty well anyone can. Maybe bikes that espouse a simple 'get on and ride' idea can be a part of that.
02-02-08 | 08:19 PM
#77
Mirror slap survivor
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
From: Sunny Florida
Bikes: Gunnar Sport, Surly Pacer, Access MTB, Ibex Corrida, one day a Simple City
I remember Trek dealers pretty much taking a bath on the L200. I understand not a lot of dealers stocked them, and the ones that did had them on the floor for a LONG time. Specialized sold a Globe which was similar, but must not have sold well either. Is there a market for a complete utility bike package? I think dealers are wary of stocking one, mainly because they lose the additional sales of accessories. Bike shops don't actually make much profit on bikes, right? I've always heard they have more of a markup on accessories, and if you can sell someone fenders, a rack, panniers, and a light that's a decent chunk of money.
02-02-08 | 08:53 PM
#78
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,863
Likes: 6
From: Washington, DC
Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?
I think there is, but it really depends on the location, too. Put together a combination of near-hippie environmental awareness 
and a bike-able municipality, and the market would probably be pretty good.
I've wondered if that's part of the hesitation I've experienced when I ask about generators & lights. Imagine their side of it, having a few dozen lights to sell, then someone comes up and asks about a way to not buy any of those lights again.
and a bike-able municipality, and the market would probably be pretty good.
I think dealers are wary of stocking one, mainly because they lose the additional sales of accessories. Bike shops don't actually make much profit on bikes, right? I've always heard they have more of a markup on accessories, and if you can sell someone fenders, a rack, panniers, and a light that's a decent chunk of money.
02-03-08 | 05:48 AM
#79
Palmer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,151
Likes: 2,262
From: Parts Unknown
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
I recently posted a page with pictures, descriptions and approximate retail prices of 2008-model commuting bikes here.
The Giant Suede Coasting of course has Shimano's auto-shifting 3-speed Coasting geartrain, not a singlespeed coaster brake.
The Schwinn Coffee (and Cream) has f/r caliper brakes, not a coaster brake.
HTH,
TCS
02-03-08 | 06:59 AM
#80
Mirror slap survivor
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
From: Sunny Florida
Bikes: Gunnar Sport, Surly Pacer, Access MTB, Ibex Corrida, one day a Simple City
The Amsterdam does not have a full chaincase. It's a open back chainguard styled to look like a chaincase.
The Giant Suede Coasting of course has Shimano's auto-shifting 3-speed Coasting geartrain, not a singlespeed coaster brake.
The Schwinn Coffee (and Cream) has f/r caliper brakes, not a coaster brake.
HTH,
TCS
The Giant Suede Coasting of course has Shimano's auto-shifting 3-speed Coasting geartrain, not a singlespeed coaster brake.
The Schwinn Coffee (and Cream) has f/r caliper brakes, not a coaster brake.
HTH,
TCS
Schwinn's website shows the Coffee(and Cream) specced with f/r calipers AND a coaster brake. Weird spec.
https://www.schwinnbike.com/products/...il.php?id=1027
02-03-08 | 09:06 AM
#81
Still Around
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
I think dealers are wary of stocking one, mainly because they lose the additional sales of accessories. Bike shops don't actually make much profit on bikes, right? I've always heard they have more of a markup on accessories, and if you can sell someone fenders, a rack, panniers, and a light that's a decent chunk of money.
The day of reckoning may come when Walmart/Target etc. start actively promoting a reasonably low priced commuting bike well equipped like the Huffy/Schwinn/Sears one and 3 speed bikes of old. They can even update the gearing with a derailler set up and still keep the practicality.
02-03-08 | 09:23 AM
#82
Code Warrior
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
From: South suburbs of Chicago, Illinois
Bikes: Schwinn MTB/Raleigh Marathon
02-03-08 | 09:25 AM
#83
Are you really hoping for the kind of disposable garbage that Walmart would bring to the table?
I'm already skeptical about the quality of the Schwinn line, and I know from experience that the Amsterdam is overpriced - as with most neo-retro products.
I'm already skeptical about the quality of the Schwinn line, and I know from experience that the Amsterdam is overpriced - as with most neo-retro products.
02-03-08 | 09:38 AM
#85
Still Around
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Where do you think the great majority of bikes are sold in this country? I'll give you a hint, if the LBS' disappeared, most people, at least those not interested in the latest enthusiast models, wouldn't even notice. I'll make it even easier, I believe the current figure is that about 85% of new bikes are sold in department stores.
02-03-08 | 09:45 AM
#86
Still Around
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Yes wouldn't it just be so much nicer if everyone agreed with the Conventional Wisdom as provided by those in the know types? Group Hugs and electronic High Fives for all Group Thinkers; ignore those who don't march to beat of the Experts' drum. Yeah, that's the ticket for a forum discussion, eh?
02-03-08 | 09:56 AM
#87
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,863
Likes: 6
From: Washington, DC
Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?
Too bad there aren't more step-thru frames being marketed as commuter/city/urban/errand/grocery-getter/etc bikes. Swinging one's leg over a regular frame and a couple sacks of groceries (or a similar cargo load) on a rear rack is a real pain.
02-03-08 | 10:22 AM
#88
Where do you think the great majority of bikes are sold in this country? I'll give you a hint, if the LBS' disappeared, most people, at least those not interested in the latest enthusiast models, wouldn't even notice. I'll make it even easier, I believe the current figure is that about 85% of new bikes are sold in department stores.
What's your point? Mine is that the low-end market is not capable of producing a bike suitable for extended transportation use.
The great majority are also not ridden more than 50 miles in their entire lifetime. I thought this was a discussion about commuting, not about garage ornamentation.
Your attempts to speak for the "common man" are always good for a laugh.
02-03-08 | 11:12 AM
#89
Still Around
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Put new tires on any inexpensive 30 year old Huffy, Columbia, Sears, Firestone, Montgomery Ward, etc one or three speed and they are good to go for another 30 years for the typical city cycling that is actually done or would even be considered practical by most any person considering bike commuting. Doubly true for any bike built prior to the 10 speed "racer" fad of the 70's.
Actually I was in Walmart yesterday and saw several one speed balloon tired bikes with full fenders for about $80 that would serve the commuting purpose for a large slice of the typical commutes of both adults and youth. The only maintenance that should be required is checking the air in the tires on occasion. I don't buy into the propaganda put out by the LBS claque who bad mouth any and all products that do not have name brand/LBS provenance.
My point is that the extreme long distance commuter, all weather condition commuter or the cyclist who will commute regularly on long dirt roads and long steep hills is the exception, not the rule in the real world, though the opposite may be true for the BF commuting expert population. And those typical real world commuting cyclists do not need, nor necessarily get any significant value for their money, from up scale products targeted for a tiny slice of the total population - well to do cycling enthusiasts.
Last edited by iltb-2; 02-03-08 at 11:18 AM.
02-04-08 | 08:52 AM
#90
Baloney! If those bikes aren't ridden more than 50 miles there is no practical reason they couldn't. What makes you think the owners would have cycled more if they had bought, and were bent over like pretzels, on fancy "high quality" enthusiasts' machines?
Put new tires on any inexpensive 30 year old Huffy, Columbia, Sears, Firestone, Montgomery Ward, etc one or three speed and they are good to go for another 30 years for the typical city cycling that is actually done or would even be considered practical by most any person considering bike commuting. Doubly true for any bike built prior to the 10 speed "racer" fad of the 70's.
Actually I was in Walmart yesterday and saw several one speed balloon tired bikes with full fenders for about $80 that would serve the commuting purpose for a large slice of the typical commutes of both adults and youth. The only maintenance that should be required is checking the air in the tires on occasion. I don't buy into the propaganda put out by the LBS claque who bad mouth any and all products that do not have name brand/LBS provenance.
My point is that the extreme long distance commuter, all weather condition commuter or the cyclist who will commute regularly on long dirt roads and long steep hills is the exception, not the rule in the real world, though the opposite may be true for the BF commuting expert population. And those typical real world commuting cyclists do not need, nor necessarily get any significant value for their money, from up scale products targeted for a tiny slice of the total population - well to do cycling enthusiasts.
Put new tires on any inexpensive 30 year old Huffy, Columbia, Sears, Firestone, Montgomery Ward, etc one or three speed and they are good to go for another 30 years for the typical city cycling that is actually done or would even be considered practical by most any person considering bike commuting. Doubly true for any bike built prior to the 10 speed "racer" fad of the 70's.
Actually I was in Walmart yesterday and saw several one speed balloon tired bikes with full fenders for about $80 that would serve the commuting purpose for a large slice of the typical commutes of both adults and youth. The only maintenance that should be required is checking the air in the tires on occasion. I don't buy into the propaganda put out by the LBS claque who bad mouth any and all products that do not have name brand/LBS provenance.
My point is that the extreme long distance commuter, all weather condition commuter or the cyclist who will commute regularly on long dirt roads and long steep hills is the exception, not the rule in the real world, though the opposite may be true for the BF commuting expert population. And those typical real world commuting cyclists do not need, nor necessarily get any significant value for their money, from up scale products targeted for a tiny slice of the total population - well to do cycling enthusiasts.
Noone's talking about 30-year old bikes but you. My comments were all specifically directed at the current market.
Second, you need to recheck your facts about the average commute distance in the US. The average DRIVE time is around 25 minutes. You're seriously claiming that some walmart singlespeed cruiser is the answer?
You've just been caught spewing more vague BS. As usual, your comments about "the people" didn't mean everyone. It's whatever small-town "common man" you've elected yourself spokesperson for.
----
I'm feeling stupid for not putting you on the ignore list as soon as it became obvious you couldn't give up the rhetoric.
02-04-08 | 09:25 AM
#91
eert a ekil yzarc
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,560
Likes: 0
From: Pasadena TX
Bikes: many bikes
I was reading through a British Cycling magazine the other day. They did a review on this Orbea as a commuter. From that article and this thread, wow. "Commuter" is in the eyes of the beholder...
As for the Obrbea making a good commuter on this side of the pond? I'd be willing to test it out.
As for the Obrbea making a good commuter on this side of the pond? I'd be willing to test it out.
02-04-08 | 09:55 AM
#92
Needing more power Scotty
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 1
From: Northern New England (USA)
Bikes: 2006 Trek T-80 (commuter) 1982 Bianchi SS (classic 12 speed)
Orbea
As for the Obrbea making a good commuter on this side of the pond? I'd be willing to test it out.
As for the Obrbea making a good commuter on this side of the pond? I'd be willing to test it out.
02-04-08 | 10:46 AM
#93
eert a ekil yzarc
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,560
Likes: 0
From: Pasadena TX
Bikes: many bikes
02-04-08 | 12:14 PM
#94
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
OK, I'll tell you one reason these wonderful machines for short pleasant rides in your work clothes are not popular and can't be popular: the price. People don't want to spend that much money on a bike to begin with, and even if they're willing to shell out the dough, they're not willing to take the risk of having their perfect commuting machine stolen. Hence, at the moment, craigslist serves the market far better at the moment than any so-called commuter bike.
snip
snip
Likely, many are frustrated with bike thefts and won't ride them around town and park them because of that.
But, there's no doubt you can safely lock a good bike in most neighborhoods. Still, more should be done to address this problem. While many will, most people won't spend $50 on a good lock. I'd love to see a locator chip installed in a bike, for instance.
Besides the folks with good locks, there are a lot of folks who work in places where they could store their bikes inside or in a secured area. In that case, a $1000 bike suddenly appears reasonably priced, if it's well equipped and you like riding it. Plus, you aren't spending a lot of cash in gas, and you're getting fit. It's a win-win.
I agree that if the department stores start selling them, the LBS's will to. This will hopefully drive demand up, since these bikes are the kinds of bikes most people need for transportation. That is so key to bike use adaptation by mainstream society. I pray this happens, so it could lead us to less urban sprawl, better physical fitness, a lower weight society, and less dependency on oil.
02-04-08 | 12:51 PM
#95
No one carries the DogBoy
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,320
Likes: 2
From: Upper Midwest USA
Bikes: Roubaix Expert Di2, Jamis Renegade, Surly Disc Trucker, Cervelo P2, CoMotion Tandem
If they sold it here, I'd buy one of these as my next bike, but I don't see buying a new bike for quite some time, so maybe that's why they don't sell them here...those of us that do commute have already customized the product offerings here into what we want, so they would have to sell them to new commuters. How many of these people would appreciate the virtue of the chain-case, internal hub, hub dyno, lighting etc?
I think we are still years and about $5/gal more than today (ie $8/gal in 2008 dollars) away from these things in the US market.
I think we are still years and about $5/gal more than today (ie $8/gal in 2008 dollars) away from these things in the US market.
02-04-08 | 02:11 PM
#96
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,101
Likes: 17
From: Minneapolis
I understand but disagree. I know a lot of roadies never park their nice bikes and they aren't at real risk of being stolen. Same with MTB's. Riders put them in their truck or on their rack, and drive to their destination.
Likely, many are frustrated with bike thefts and won't ride them around town and park them because of that.
But, there's no doubt you can safely lock a good bike in most neighborhoods. Still, more should be done to address this problem. While many will, most people won't spend $50 on a good lock. I'd love to see a locator chip installed in a bike, for instance.
Besides the folks with good locks, there are a lot of folks who work in places where they could store their bikes inside or in a secured area. In that case, a $1000 bike suddenly appears reasonably priced, if it's well equipped and you like riding it. Plus, you aren't spending a lot of cash in gas, and you're getting fit. It's a win-win.
I agree that if the department stores start selling them, the LBS's will to. This will hopefully drive demand up, since these bikes are the kinds of bikes most people need for transportation. That is so key to bike use adaptation by mainstream society. I pray this happens, so it could lead us to less urban sprawl, better physical fitness, a lower weight society, and less dependency on oil.
Likely, many are frustrated with bike thefts and won't ride them around town and park them because of that.
But, there's no doubt you can safely lock a good bike in most neighborhoods. Still, more should be done to address this problem. While many will, most people won't spend $50 on a good lock. I'd love to see a locator chip installed in a bike, for instance.
Besides the folks with good locks, there are a lot of folks who work in places where they could store their bikes inside or in a secured area. In that case, a $1000 bike suddenly appears reasonably priced, if it's well equipped and you like riding it. Plus, you aren't spending a lot of cash in gas, and you're getting fit. It's a win-win.
I agree that if the department stores start selling them, the LBS's will to. This will hopefully drive demand up, since these bikes are the kinds of bikes most people need for transportation. That is so key to bike use adaptation by mainstream society. I pray this happens, so it could lead us to less urban sprawl, better physical fitness, a lower weight society, and less dependency on oil.
It's not for lack of a specialized "commuter bike" that keep people in their cars. Creature comforts aside, I'd bet if you could create a nice bike path that lead straight from every person's garage to their place of work magically negating the need to ride in traffic or through "bad" neighborhoods, you would get more commuters than if you gave everyone the most expensive, well equipped "commuter" bike for free.
It's not about the bikes.
I'm not saying that equipment doesn't matter at all, I'm just saying that by the time someone starts worrying about equipment, they've probably already overcome the major barriers to bicycle commuting.
02-04-08 | 02:44 PM
#97
I'd bet if you could create a nice bike path that lead straight from every person's garage to their place of work magically negating the need to ride in traffic or through "bad" neighborhoods, you would get more commuters than if you gave everyone the most expensive, well equipped "commuter" bike for free.
Sweet... I'll see your magical bike path, and raise you a fairy godmother. She could just float along beside the bike and keep you company.
I'd bet that my fairy godmother would get more commuters than your magical bike path...
02-04-08 | 03:12 PM
#98
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,101
Likes: 17
From: Minneapolis
My point is that I don't believe that marketing the right bike is what will get more people to commute.
In my years of commuting, I've gotten many questions from people who are curious, just think I'm nuts, or maybe contemplating commuting themselves. The most common questions/comments:
1. How far do you ride?
2. Don't you get cold?
3. Don't you get sweaty?
4. I'd be afraid to drive in traffic.
5. What route do you take?
6. What do you do when it's snowy?
I've had some summer commuters ask me about clothing, tires, and lighting when winter started to roll around. Nobody has ever asked me what kind of bike I ride or what kind of bike I think they should get. I don't think that's the hangup for most people. I hardly gave it a thought when I first started commuting. I just started riding what I had.
Did I mention that the magical path is running through a climate controlled forcefield?
It's not the bikes.
02-04-08 | 03:17 PM
#99
I don't either, but I do think that marketing the right bike will get people who have already decided to commute to spend more money - which is all they really care about right?
