It is unfair when someone else can make something up, at any time, and get you fired (and without even having a chance to defend yourself) while you do not have the same power over them.

Someone I knew at my last job lost his job this way. HR brought him in one day, and told him "You're a risk, so we're letting you go." He has no idea what happened, or who he offended, that was just it. And I mean I know the guy - he wasn't a macho or aggressive guy, he was a laid back friendly guy. Do you think that would happen to a girl? Do you think a guy can walk into HR and say "I found something this girl said very offensive" or "this girl has been hitting on me and it makes me uncomfortable" and they would fire the woman without asking her for an explanation or giving her a warning? It's very, very unlikely, and that's why it's "unfair".

It's also unfair for guys because guys who don't take the risk and ask girls out who they aren't sure are interested in them have trouble finding dates, while girls can avoid taking those risks and still get asked out all the time. As a guy I can't, for example, just dress up sexy and be friendly and have girls ask me out on dates. Girls might flirt with me, but they won't go as far as asking me out or anything. As a girl, you can do that, and do it without risking anyone complaining about sexual harassment.

Personally, I'm certainly happy the days of bosses being able to make snide comments or ask for "favors" without fear of getting their ass canned plus a civil suit is over. And life isn't fair - I'm not going to start complaining because auto mechanics don't try to charge me for changing my blinker oil. ;-) I'm just saying as a guy, that's why it's unfair.

All I can say is that I'm very glad that I don't work in an industry where you have to be so darn politically correct just to survive.

Who are you calling a gentleman ?

:lol:

I find that the entire dynamic is drastically different in my place of employment.

Of course, I work in a brothel.

:lol: I wonder what the "rules" for that situation are.

Oh we 'get it' all right it's just that it's a complete croc...and an extremely sexist perspective to boot. If a guy's got 'game' and the looks to go with it he can get away with pretty much anything...laugh it off as a joke and 7 hrs later YOU'RE doing the 'walk of shame' @ 8:00 AM and wondering how you got there. It's been statictically proven that people who're considered 'attractive' get a tremendous amount of latitude in life in general. Which brings me back to Chris Rock's point. Shade it anyway you want, if it's the 'right guy' it's never 'creepy'. It's about confidence and indifference...both powerful aphros for either sex. CT just never developed 'game '(ie, social skills w/ women) as he way too busy 'bookin' it' to develope any sense of what's appropriate...alledgedly. So, don't expect people to do a lock step w/your opinions just because you THINK you're right. I happen to flatly disagree. W/all due respect, of course. :)

Where's the troll smiley? Ooooh - there is is!

:troll: :troll: :troll: :troll: :troll: :troll: :troll: :troll:

Amen to that. It IS unfair, and because it's easier and cheaper for corporations to administer, it will never change. Which is why I advocated the rather extreme measures earlier -- if you're a male, you do not talk to women at your job about anything other than work. You do not comment on their attire or appearance. You do not invite women to your work area. If your building has an elevator that you use, you do not enter it if it is occupied by just one woman. And if you are alone on an elevator, and a woman enters, then you exit the car even if it's not your floor -- take another car. If you are called into a meeting alone with one woman, insist on another person to join the meeting, or failing that. insist the door be left open so any conversation may be overheard.

Sounds paranoid? Of course. But why risk everything against the possibility, however remote, that there is at least one female nutcase at your place of business? Yes, I speak from experience.

As for meeting your future spouse at your job -- if you really believe that woman across the hall is for you, then quit your job and get another someplace else, so you can maintain some safety and distance while dating her.

I don't expect anyone to do a lockstep with my opinions. The rant about creepy vs. not creepy was my perspective.

I do understand why men are paranoid in this day and age, and I think it's a shame that people can't exercise a little common sense in this area. Honestly, in every single instance that I've noted, including the creepy moments, I have never filed a sexual harassment complaint. I have worked in moderately female-hostile environments, as well. As long as things stayed on a verbal level, I felt equipped to defend myself.

I also understand that my playing around with flirtatious co-workers may invite some unanticipated results. (See my story about the guy asking me for a 3-some with him and his wife.) However, it seems pretty common sense to me that a simple "No, I am not really interested" would be the logical end to that conversation. BTW, I've also been on the other side. After an ongoing flirting routine with a guy at work, I inititiated the idea of something more substantial. He said "No," and I never brought it up again.

The major line for me would be: 1) if employment or promotion was based upon sexual favors or 2) Physical attacks or 3) Severe and ongoing interference with my ability to perform my job (as in the case with the miner who was threatened, physically attacked, and told outright by co-workers to stop working there).

I don't think it's fair to penalize someone for just asking. I do think it's fair to penalize someone for being abusive, utlizing power for favors, or not letting the thing go. ...Again, this is all my perspective, and not necessarily the ruling of any court. ;)

Young lady (er, you are a young lady, no?), you sound like a sensible person. And most of us here are, as well. We are none of us critical of you. It is the system that has been brought about by, yes, abhorrent men who do not take "no" for an answer. That is where your logic and sense of fairness would ultimately fail in a workplace that did not have these onerous harassment policies in place. The situations you listed should indeed be met with swift reprisal and actions to make things right for the complainant.

Our unaddressed concern is that the policies now make it too easy for women to lodge frivolous or fraudulent complaints. I don't have the cite anymore for this next point, but there is at least one state -- California, I believe -- where even the state law itself does not require a woman's testimony on sexual harassment or **** to be substantiated or corroborated; this is based on the completely unfounded principle, pushed forward by radical feminist ideology, that any woman would never lie about such a crime. That is a fatuous idea, yet it stands in at least one court.

The young issue, like so many other issues on this thread, would be open to interpretation. I'm over 40. How else do you think I had the time to rack up so many crazy workplace experiences?;)

And I do see the point the men are making. Most of my carrying on here is in defense of that point. I feel that extreme policies are not only unfair to men, but also lead to backlash, which isn't in my best interest as a female, either.

Some of my sisters in arms may take offense, and I guess I'll have to live with that.

I am curious about some of the laws that the guys are so fearful of, though. My practical understanding of the issue has been that simply asking for a date or giving a compliment is not grounds for a harassment claim, but persistently doing these things after being told to stop is. I think some companies may be extra cautious and have policies that are more restrictive than the law. Again, sexual harassment law is not my area of expertise; I'm just going on some of the trainings and attitudes I've heard at different workplaces.

Hey Rec.

What was it again 40 looking 20? ;):love::D

Don't know why this game to mind first when I saw the first post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpu31...eature=related Haha.. interesting song (no swearing so work safe).

In my most fit cycling year. Our group entered a restaurant during a ride. The waitress said, you have nice calves.. Another time. A club member heard a passing woman yell out. Nice arse.. It's terrible to feel like a piece of meat...Congratulations to the OP.

I can't speak for other men; I don't discuss this with anyone I know for fear of bringing suspicion on myself. This forum is the first place I've spoken about this somewhat openly. And I still won't divulge exactly what happened to me, in case someone on this board now, or a future member, could determine my identity from my story.

But I can tell you that in the past twenty years, I've been the subject of complaints from women because I 1) complimented a woman I didn't know in the hall on her colorful dress (this was in the days when everyone, male and female, wore gray suits to the office); 2) complimented another woman's perfume who was sitting at my workstation next to me, thigh to thigh, because she was giving me some training; 3) a third female complained for reasons I don't know, but the only thing I ever discussed with her was the medical intervention my wife and I chose when we were infertile for a time; 4) and the most bizarre: I was the target of a complaint when I STOPPED talking to a woman, but I did talk to a friend of hers. The two of them put their heads together and decided "there must be something wrong" with me because I apparently lost interest in female #1 when she brought her children to the office. And there's more episodes.

I've never told a dirty joke at work. I've never asked a woman coworker for a date. I've never touched a woman inappropriately. And I most certainly have never made any requests for sexual favors in return for promotions, not that I've ever held such a position with that power. And yet I've been made the target of some women's frivolous complaints that, in one case, probably cost me my job, although no one would ever admit it. In the last case, #4, I was in a position where no investigation was necessary; I could have been fired on the spot with no recourse.

The only thing that saved me was my very intelligent and sensible female manager, who called me to a private meeting and apologized -- apologized! -- on behalf of the company and on behalf of women, for what I had just been put through (which was a mandatory meeting where I was raked over the coals by my agency manager, witnessed by some flunkie female employee of my firm). I was bewildered and hurt and mystified, and very grateful to her. And her advice to me -- "Don't talk to strange women?" she said in a questioning tone. Extreme, but I think she was right.

You're right, those laws and corporate policies were put in place to protect women from egregious sexual harassment, but they were written much, much more broadly than that. Look up the EEO laws, or your own company's employee policies, and you'll find a phrase something like "hostile work environment". It is a vague term that can be applied to ANYthing an employee wants it to mean.

So, around women at the office, I no longer compliment anyone on anything. I talk about the weather, my kids, or our project. Perhaps recipes when we bring in food. That is it. Full stop. Nothing personal. I just do not trust any woman at the office, ever.

Don't I wish! It's more like 40 and acting 20. In other words, I'll still take a compliment where I can get it.

David,
All I can say is that sucks something mighty. :( I hope you can have more peaceful work relations in the future. I would hate to have to walk around in a state of fear for 40 hours a week.

David,

I have lived my entire adult life out side of the USA. I have been home many times to visit and for short, max 6 months work deals.

I inevidably get in trouble when I go back because I still compliment ppl on their attire, their smile, their hair, their shows, their good work, whatever...

My relatives get so hung up on being afraid to have a good time and seem to loath being nice to others.

How could making a compliment come off as being offensive? Well, it cannot, it really is that simple and I refuse to give into the stupidity that was the whole PC movement in the 1990s.

Sure I tone things down because where I currently live (hungary, if anybody cares) flirting is expected!!! I have had female coworkers get angry because I did not flirt with them!!! I may have said their hair looked good, or commente don teh nice new sweater or sg, but that was not enough!!!!

This throws most Americans for a loop and they do not know how to handle it... and when Hungarians, and Europeans travel to the US or hear about crazy cases in the US, they in general think that Americans are prudes and up tight about things like sex, and they tend to find all the sexual harassment cases they hear about as being nothing other than BS!

I say you relax, keep making those comments, everybody likes to hear nice things, if they do not then they are truly messed up and need a shrink!

rob

We are a bunch of prudes. I hear that the Australians (from an Australian) think we're kind of funny with our Puritanical ways. I alo think that our prudish nature is why sex carries so much power, whether it be in the form of porn, titillating TV, so-called "marriage amendements" or even sexual harassment claims.

As for David, he doesn't feel safe because he's been through the wringer on this issue. I wouldn't advise him to "loosen up"...unless he's moving to Hungary in the near future.

Being on the female side of things, I simply want equal opportunity and equal pay, while being free from abuse. I don't consider little stuff to be abusive. And if I am offended, I think it's my responsibility to address it directly with the person before making a federal case of it. Obviously, not everyone is operating the same way as I am.

...Oh yeah, by the way, the orginal intent of this thread was that I felt a little bit boosted up because someone said something nice about my 40 + year old legs. I was happy about the fact that cycling had done good things for my legs, and it was more about pride in my limited athleticism than anything. That was all. L'il Brown Bat decided to turn the discussion into a federal case.

I say you keep riding, get those elgs looking even better and having fun in the saddle.


When visiting family in the US I will continue to complement ppl. I will pretty much do things as I did in the mid 80s when I wa sin high school... I am not going to let a bunch of up tight ninnies dictate how I live.

if I accidently offend anybody then they should et me know... I certianly have been offended by many ppl.. I have had my ass pinched by a co worker... she thought I had a nice ass and was hitting on me.. I was not attracted to her and told her to leave me alone... I did like the fact that she found me attractive... I had another co worker hit on me, him and his boyfriend wanted me in on a threesome... I said no and that I like women.... not men... they were convinced I was gay and lying to them... again, nice that they found me attractive ....

robi

Yeah. It's a matter of perspective. I recently posted a thread about oral sex in another forum, and it was banned. I'm like, "C'mon! It was labelled. Anyone who doesn't want the discussion can skip it." What ever happened to the simple act of making a choice?

...And I am an equal opportunity compliment acceptor, as well. If a lesbian compliments my legs, I'll take that, too. It doesn't mean I'm going to bed with anyone...For criminey!

oral sex ftw! WHO BANNED ORAL SEX??? lol

My mother's family is Czech and Hungarian, and I grew up in the culture you describe. My aunts and female cousins expect compliments on their appearance, and are insulted if they are not given, along with hugs and kisses. It took me some time to understand the rest of the world isn't like that.

Thanks for the thoughts on my job. It's not all as bad as what I described. It's just that one insecure woman can make a lot of trouble for everyone. I just play safe and keep my charm to myself at the office.

Hungary also has an estimated 1-in-10 spousal abuse rate, and unsympathetic police response to **** complaints. I'll take overly-PC HR departments.

This thread has been revived often enough to make the dead uneasy.

Closed, but thanks for participating :) .

East Hill
Forum Moderator