Just for the record, I like guns and own several. I grew up shooting rifles and handguns, hunting, and competing on a junior small bore rifle team at a local gun club attaining a sharpshooter qualification. I continue to shoot, on an increasingly rare basis, in bowling pin competitions and as a casual target shooter. As familiar and comfortable as I am with firearms I would never consider carrying one (whether on my bicycle or otherwise) for self-defense; too much of a liability practically, ethically, and legally. My guns are unloaded, trigger locked, and reside in a friend's floor safe-they're not for self-defense. In addition, I live in an urban area and have commuted into DC nearly every day for the last 6 years. I have never once felt threatened enough to consider carrying a pistol. Carrying a gun and choosing to use it is a hell of a responsibility, you'd better be sure you're making the right decision-every time. In fact, you're much more likely to: have it used againts you, stolen, lost, used in a suicide or accidental shooting, or used againts a family member or friend, or, simply, in a legally un-justifiable shooting. It is indeed the anomoly rather than the rule when a firearm is legally, justifiably and, effectively used in the deterrence of an actual crime. Then, imagine trying to reconcile your "right" to own a firearm and/or use it with having just shot and killed a child or someone you mistakenly thought was trying to steel your precious bike-too much of a risk for me, I wouldn't want that on my conscience. In fact, if it came down to it, I'd rather simply take a safer route, opt for another means of transportation or, give up my bike and file a claim to get it replaced in a worst case scenario. The cowboy, gunslinger fantasy where you ride in all guns blazing (and ride out unscathed) is just that-the statistics bear that out. Do yourself a favor and leave your guns at home.

http://velocide.com/user_uploads/IsraelionBike.jpg


Just had to do it... =)

Just a couple of comments:
The story says he was less than 1.5 miles from his home, so to my thinking he was riding in his general neighborhood area, his home area, not some area that he had no business being in at that time of night unless his friend lived in the neighborhood he was riding to. I see nothing in the story to indicate the cyclist didn't have good sense, and nothing to indicate he was naive. The story was posted in September 2007 and says he went for a bike ride after the 10:00pm news, so that would make it about 10:30pm on a Wednesday night. If it was a warm day that day then maybe he just went for a short ride before going to sleep for the night, nothing wrong with that, nothing naive. Traffic is light at night, roads are relatively clear, nice peacefull time for a bike ride around town. I see nothing to indicate the cyclist was lacking in good sense or was naive.

Do you know if the police ever caught his attacker(s)?

He's not wearing a helmet, his groceries should be held in panniers or a rack bag, if he falls off his bike he might get hurt if he lands on the rifle, he is riding with only one hand on the handlebars, and if someone attacked him he wouldn't be able to employ his rifle in a timely manner due to his backpack being in the way. I'm sure others can find more details to consider as well.

Sorry, I just had to say it. :D

Agreed, I should think that I could easily tackle him and separate him from his gun. Who's in trouble then???

Well, it certainly doesn't make for a very inflammatory one :D

Well, then we'll get the circus ponies and trample the bad guys to death. What's that you say? Where did I get the circus ponies? The same place you got a "rough neighborhood" that can't be avoided.

Now, whoa up, I know what you're about to say -- what if someone lives there? That's a legitimate point. I brought up the circus ponies because I hate the way these discussions always devolve into a gear-and-testosterone debate about what's the bestest lethalist weapon for a "street situation" (which somehow never gets defined). The other questions -- really the more important ones -- never get the airtime they deserve: like, for instance, "What makes you perceive something as a 'rough neighborhood' (and is that a realistic assessment)?" or, "What are the ways to avoid the situation altogether rather than preparing to make a physical response to an attack?" or, "What are the ways that you can train to become proficient in the use of <weapon> so that it would be effective in such a situation?" It's a lot more fun, apparently, to go on about how you'd "do whatever was necessary to protect MY FAMILY <no hot buttons there, oh no> from any scum who attacks them" -- never mind that most likely you have no skills or training to do so.

Feh.

How do I define my work place location as a rough neighborhood:
1. Several armed robberies every year, several murders, several drug busts, rapes, attacks, vehicle thefts, vehicle content thefts, regular break-ins of local residences. Several armed robberies have been with a shotgun during daylight hours on a city sidewalk next to a busy street, not just a small handgun in a pocket but a full sized shotgun (I assume the criminal was at least wearing a trench coat to conceal the weapon used). One local bank was robbed twice in one week by the same robbers, I guess the robbers figured the bank would figure they wouldn't get robbed twice in one week and might have more cash on the second "visit". I know one person who's wife is a home health care worker, one of her patients lives near here, he is told to call the patient on the cell phone when he arrives and to stay in the car, the patient then sends out a relative to escort the wife/nurse into the residence while he is told to stay in his vehicle with the engine running and the windows closed and the doors locked and that the only way it is safe for his wife to come inside is with an escort from someone who is known in the neighborhood. There are weekly reports of various criminal activity around here. This is how I define this as a "rough neighborhood", and this one is much nicer than some others ones in the general area.

How to avoid a situation?
1. Awareness, staying alert, knowing what to watch for, being ready to adjust and react to or escape and evade a situation before the situation becomes a situation and in a manner that doesn't make it obvious that you are performaing an escape and evade maneuver except to others who are alert and aware of such things. Kind of like flirting at a high school dance when you were in high school, there are a whole lot of signals happening that the clueless are clueless to and the only way to know them is to tune in and be alert and aware. Is the guy half way down the block who just stood up on his front porch just when you came around the corner, is that guy reaching into his back pocket to grab a gun or to scratch his rear or to grab a hankie to blow his nose? Do you really want to stick around to know? Can you evade without turning your evasion into an insult if the guy is just scratching his behind? And if he was going for a gun can you evade his buddy on the next street over who has eyeshot to his buddy and just got a signal to intercept you? You don't have to ride around in a borderline panic, but you do have to be aware. Same as with cars in traffic, not all of them are about to turn in front of you, but you have to be ready in case one does and you have to be alert to the signals that one is about to.

Training for proficiency:
1. Study, read, practice, take classes, continually try to improve your skillset, and know that no matter how good you are that there is always more to learn and something that you can improve upon.

I'm no expert and don't pretend to be one, I've just managed to somehow survive this long and hope to continue surviving for many years to come.

Plus, with the ammunition for the AR15 being expensive and non existant right now, it's probably not loaded.

saying: "I would rather be judged by twelve then carried by six"
At what point do you realize he/she just wanted your bike and not your life.
Wake up people! There are bad people in this world. Be careful.

You should probably read some of the follow up reports like this one:

http://www.startribune.com/local/min.../11545356.html

The suspect said they stole $40 out of his pocket. The police suggested that he may have been trying to buy drugs though the family doubts it. They accuse the police of trying to downplay the danger to the general public by claiming that Loesch was engaging in risky behavior. Loesch did have a drug conviction in 2003. He cleaned up his act after that.

Even though the place where he was robbed is only 1.5 miles from his house, it's not at all in the same neighborhood. A few blocks can make a huge difference. My house is also probably less than 2 miles away and I do not like riding in that area at night though I have done so at a marginally better area a couple of blocks West. I don't linger at intersections.

It sounds like he was surprised by the attack and I highly doubt carrying a gun would have helped him.

The other thing to note is that this was headline news exactly because it's uncommon for cyclist to be involved in such a brutal incident.

To the OP, I sent you an IM. Unfortunately his forum is comprised of many anti-gun liberal sheep. I find a lot cyclists are. However, it's the ones that post snide remarks that get threads like this locked instead of keeping it open for intelligent people with experience to the original question to comment on. As someone whose is fairly new to cycling, I find that the members of this forum have a wealth of information. Please don't let the few bad apples stop you from visiting this site.

You mean like the one calling forum members liberal sheep just because they question the benefits of gun carrying while riding? :rolleyes:

"Should I carry a weapon when riding in a bad area?"
"Just don't ride there"
"Don't tell me what to do"
"Look at this non-related anecdotal evidence"
"Look at this picture of a machine gun"
"Crazy gun nut"
"Wussy liberal"

And there it is........It's funny how a debate such as this typically devolves into name calling and insults. Although I'm often labelled an "anti-gun, liberal sheep", the irony is that I'm not necassarily anti gun-I know that there are many, legitimate sporting uses for certan guns. I personall enjoy shooting, when I have the chance. I am, however, also anti-gun violance/death/proliferation, etc. I don't think that's an unreasonable stance or worthy of insult. In my experience, the gun advocates simply want their guns and imagine myriad scenarios where they are able to use them (usually involving the shooting of "perps" and defending damsels in distress) thereby justifying the carrying of said weapon (s). The statistics do not bear out those scenarios-not even close. A handgun in one's home or on one's person is many, many times more likely to be a liability to the owner, rather than a safety measure. They then turn to personal attacks when confronted with logic, reason, statistical evidence, etc. It seems that it's somehow threatening to their manhood when the main thrust of their fantasy is undermined through this debate. Another thing I've learned, is that they are so attached to the notion of guns as empowering, life-saving, testosterone pills that they will never concede any part of their perspective so, I reserve my advice for those who are on the fence about gun ownership/carrying. I hope the original poster makes the smart choice, it's obvious to the more informed among us: take a safer route, ride at safe times, leave the gun at home. I mean, carrying a gun while your riding your bike....think about how silly that sounds.

How rediculous. A little question like that would start all of this...

Thank you for posting the link to the follow-up story.

Have we reached page 5 yet?

Kind of like asking if a cyclist has to come to a complete stop at a stop sign if there is no traffic around, eh? ;)

An accurate analysis.
So those that take a realistic view of the practical limitations of using a gun are now "anti gun liberal sheep." lol...
It's one thing to bluster about on a bike forum as to "what you would do" but the cold reality is that a gun quickly becomes a liability when confronted with that split second decision to take a life. And that split second decision is based on VERY limited information that will affect you the rest of your life.

Any question involving:

1. lycra vs regular clothes
2. which is better? road bike or...
3. Walmart
4. carrying a weapon
5. riding on sidewalks
6. running lights, stop signs, or Critical Mass

is almost guaranteed to generate multiple pages of replies

Oh Oh...I have an opinion.

1.) Avoid the bad areas, prevention is the best method, also don't smoke or partake in other behaviors with known consequences.

2.) If you still want to carry, get licensed and train your ass off. Practice at home drawing while laying in a heap on the floor. Avoid the less than lethal, most people who carry pepper spray have never used it, so their chances of hitting an attacked is rather limited (also do you know for a fact the spray will actually spray?) Carry on your body with a compact frame 9mm or larger, anything under that caliber could have problems with heavy clothing or multiple layers (if you think because it's warm this isn't an issue you should know that many baddies will wear several layers to remove if the cops are given a description by a victim). And of course avoid Lycra it prints like a b***h. :thumb:

With all that being said, I am a firearm enthusiast, but I do not carry a piece. I live near a questionable (for Minnesota) neighborhood and avoid contact with people are also questionable. I do carry a large knife (for cutting fruit or opening boxes ;) ) and dress like a hardcore freak, so if the residents of my fine city try to roll me for the $0 I carry or the cheap looking bike I'm riding, go for it I do physical labor for my employment, workout and am handy with a blade.

As for the OP, go for it I'll never see the business end of it because I leave people alone and enjoy a life of relative peace (I certainly wouldn't attack anyone without significant provocation).

I own several guns. Enjoy the heck out of target shooting.

I would never consider carrying one while biking. Too cumbersome, in my opinion, and once you let loose the bullet you have no control over where it goes, should you miss your intended target.

If I was riding in an area where I thought I needed some extra protection, I would probably buy a Taser and find a way to attach it to my bike where I could easily grab and use it.

http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx

My son is a brand new Seattle Police Officer, just got of of the academy about a month ago. As part of his training he got tased. I saw the video of him being tased - he was totally incapacitated for about ten seconds. He says it's not something he would want to go through again.

Sure thing. It's hard to know exactly what happened. Certainly it was a brutal crime. It was a robbery however and not just a random beating. 38th and Chicago is known for a certain amount of illegal commerce and the victim probably knew that. Even if he wasn't trying to buy drugs, he was in an area best avoided after dark.

Knowing that you enjoy shooting, I would have hoped that you would have gotten your facts straight.

FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.
* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ. Anti-gun Democrat
Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminals) is shed.

FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.
* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.
* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
This means that, each year, firearms are used 65 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.

FACT: 92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes.
* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police

FACT: Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.
* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,
**** Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979

Not meant as a personal attack. There are "many, many" more. Guns in responsible, trained, hands can and do save lives.
IF YOU THINK YOU NEED A GUN TO GET THROUGH AN AREA, DO NOT GO!!!!
IT IS YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO HAVE AND CARRY FIREARMS. IF YOU DO NOT EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT THAN YOU STAND A CHANCE TO LOSE IT!!!

There was on time when I wished I had a gun with me. I was riding on the San Gabriel river bike path. It's a closed, paved river path (the river is concrete not a regular river) when a pick-up truck got on the trail and hit me from behind - the skell got out with a tire iron and threw my Merckx into the back of the truck. I tried to get it from the back of the truck but he came at me with the tire iron so I backed off. He went to the end of the path to where the gate was locked for vehicle traffic, turned around and came back at me. It would have been perfect to shoot him through the windshield - but I'm glad I didn't have a gun - he'd be dead and I would have had years of legal trouble. And besides that, there are many times during a ride where I would shoot people.

***Edit - but I'm not saying that you shouldn't carry a gun; maybe you have more self-control than I do. I am not pro-gun but I'd rather see a dead skell than a dead cyclist.***