Pugant

Hi,

I know there's a bunch of these threads, but I was looking for some input on which bike to choose as an all-round commuter. Previously I just used my road bike (a trek 1400) but since I've just moved from australia to switzerland and had to leave me bike behind I'm in the market for a new ride. My commute is about 20m one-way. Also, and this is something I've never experienced before, but I'm going to have to deal with snow and a fair bit of it if I'm going to commute all year round. I've been looking at two kona bikes so far, the jake the snake and the ***** inc. Basically I was looking for a bike with drop bars, around 105 standard, with options for fenders and racks. My questions are

1. how much speed over a 20 mile commute will I lose going from a road bike to a cross bike or a tourer? I would usually do that distance in around an hour on a racer, will the time difference be negligble or significant?
2. the ***** inc. has the disc brakes, with the snow/winter riding, how much better will these be over the JTS?
3. how realistic is a 20 mile commute in heavy snow? will this just be too long for practical purposes?

also, does anyone have any other bikes that I should consider? I would be especially interested in any european brands as I know very few of them.

I know a lot of these questions are subjective, just looking for a little input from those who have far more winter riding experience especially than I do (considering I have none).

thanks

mickey85

1. On 32c tires, I can do a 10 mile commute in about 35 minutes. On 38c tires, I can do it in about 45 minutes. I find that anything thinner than 32c just serves to beat me up and not make me go much faster.

2. If I could, I'd go with disc brakes or drum brakes. Having them near the hub makes it harder for snow to get there, and they just stop better anyway. That said, riding in snow, you are experiencing slippery conditions, and having the lock-up potential with something like that might worry me a bit.

3. What kind of heavy snow are we talking about? I once did 10 miles in a blizzard with a 20 mph headwind, and never ever am doing that again. I think it depends on your commute though. If you have a commute that is generally well plowed, flat, and paved, I don't see much of a problem. If you have lots of hills, dirt roads, and 4 foot drifts, yeah, that could suck a lot.

Bottom line for me though is that 20 miles is a fair piece no matter what the conditions - do you want to be out in potentially subzero (Fahrenheit) temperatures for 20 miles?

Pugant

thanks for the info

1. I was thinking 32 would be my default, and then potentially get bigger ones for the winter.

2. from what I've heard, and having no experience, I understood disc brakes to have better control, so I was thinkinng that it would help avoid a lock-up situation... at least, that's what I was hoping

3. This I don't know, I just arrived in NE switzerland, and never having done a winter here or anywhere that it actually snows it's hard for me to say, from what I saw at the tail end of the winter/start of spring, the roads are plowed quite quickly here after a snowstorm. The temp thing is also an unknown, and something I won't be able to know until I give it a go I think.

I know some people reguarly ride in the snow, but I wasn't sure if it was 20 miles or 2 miles. I do have a train line so bailing out halfway is quite feasible if I can't feel my toes anymore.

tjspiel

There is a winter biking forum. Even though it's not too active this time of year, poking through some of the posts might be helpful. As far as distance goes one of things that happens in the winter is that you go slower, even when the roads are good. There are lots of theories as to why this happens, including denser air, but it's real. When the roads are bad of course it takes even longer. A trip that takes me 25 minutes in the summer can easily take 45 in the winter if there's snow on the roads. Getting dressed is more time consuming in the winter too.

For your bike I'd recommend something with clearance for 35mm tires and fenders at a minimum. The reason I say 35 is because that is about the smallest effective studded tire for bikes that I know of. You may or may not need studs but it's nice to have that option.

JeremyZ

I agree with Mickey. What is a lot of snow to you? How are the hills? I've only seen Zurich at night for a couple hours, but even that is hilly enough that I wouldn't want to try it in snow. The cabbies there drive REALLY fast.

I think I'd look into public transit options for the worst months of the year. Also, look into whether studded bike tires are legal there, if you're going to push ahead with it.

To me, a mountain bike with studded tires would be the way to go if you go through with it.

Juha

Agree about the 35mm clearance at minimum. Regarding 3), cold weather and/or slippery surfaces are basically not huge issues. They can be addressed with layered clothing and studded tyres. If roads are plowed quickly, OP shouldn't have much of a problem. If not - well, we have MUPs that are plowed after the roads are clear (they've promised an upgrade for the MUPs with highest traffic though). This past winter I spent 2 hours "riding" a commute that usually takes me 35-45 minutes. There was snow up to hub level in banks on the MUP. I had to push the bike on several occasions. My winter tyres are Nokian W106s, they're great for icy roads with little snow, but not so great in deep snow. xc skis might have been good that day.

The good thing about snow is, you get traction. If the conditions are really icy, or the snow is hard packed and polished, you'll need to learn to brake primarily with rear brake and NOT lean into curves.

--J

tsl

I just completed my third winter on this:

It's a 2006 Trek Portland. A bit spendy, but at the time I bought it, there were no other choices available. My requirements were:

• Drop bars with STI
• Triple with 175mm crank
• Rack and fender mounts
• Room in the frame and fork for my studded snow tires with full fenders
• Disc brakes
• Aluminum frame

The 105/Ultegra drivetrain and carbon fork were nice extras. Although since winter riding eats chains for breakfast, I'd be a lot happier with 8 or 9-speed. 10-speed chains get expensive after a while.

These days there are many more options, although few in aluminum. With weeks and weeks of almost continuous snow, coupled with the way they salt the roads around here, I wouldn't use a steel bike in winter. Cars don't last more than seven to ten years. Possibly it's different elsewhere--cold and dry it wouldn't be an issue.

My only complaints about the bike were the low-spoke-count wheels. Since that photo, (taken in 2008) I've replaced the wheels and added a dynamo hub and lighting system. In the long dark of winter, it's very nice having lights that don't need batteries. I can't afford a lighting failure during a ride. That's why I still supplement the dyno lights with battery ones.

Here's how it was equipped for this past winter:


A 20-mile commute in winter is ambitious, but doable depending on conditions. I'm not sure that would be for me, but everyone's different.

Studded snow tires are a must. Even well-plowed and salted roads always seem to have hidden patches of ice. It's the ice that gets you without studs.

Even with the right equipment, riding in the snow is tough. It's the varying road conditions that are the challenge. No two bike-lengths are ever the same. The best conditions are fresh snow, glare ice, and wet, gushy slush.

Good, solid hardpack is almost like asphalt. The problem is that it's also layered and flaky, like pastry crust. As it forms and as it disintegrates, the packed layers slide against each other--sideways--as you roll over it. Your tires may have excellent grip on the top layer, but that layer may shear against the layers below--and it always does so sideways. Unfortunately, hardpack is the most common surface I face.

The weather is lots, lots easier to work with. There are two things I would not be without.

1. Windproof, water-resistant, insulated tights, and
2. my Lake MXZ302 winter cycling shoes.

While have preferences, I can make do with almost anything else, although I've found cycling-specific clothing makes it a lot easier.

Pugant

thanks everyone,

that was pretty much the setup I was thinking of tsl, the problem I had with the portland was that the current model specs seem to be a fair step down for the price (mostly tiagra). How much do you think you need the disc brakes? would you be happy doing your commute with canti's? and how long is your commute by the way?

the two bikes I'm looking at, the jake the snake is alu, but no disc brakes, while the ***** is steel, which I wasn't sure about and would need to double check the tire clearance.

I'm actually about an hour NE of zurich, the commute has about 1200 feet of drop, so riding home there's one decent long hill at the end (last 4 miles) otherwise mostly flat. There is a train option for the days where the hill is to much though. In the morning, I think the major problem will be staying warm on a long (for me) descent. From what I've heard the roads here are plowed very quickly, so I would imagine it would not be deep drifts I would have to worry about, although I have zero exp with snow so I'm not taking anything for granted.

rumrunn6

20 miles in snow is not advisable

mtalinm

the Portland is beautiful. had I known that I would be doing weekend recreational riding and would eventually be able to "lean down", I would've gotten that bike.

what I ended up with isn't so bad though. for $720 I got a 2009 Trek Soho, which I think has geometry similar to the Portland though a flat bar and three major differences:
1) belt drive instead of a chain - this is absolutely wonderful
2) internal gears, 8-speed Nexus hub - seems to be a taste thing, but I love them for stop & go city riding.
3) roller brakes instead of disc brakes - not crazy about these, although they perform perfectly in the rain

for whatever reason Trek bumped the MSRP of the Soho to $1050 for the current model without improving anything, so I don't know that it's such a great deal anymore. but it is a virtually maintenance-free bike and is workable for the occasional weekend distance ride

tsl

I wore out the braking surface on a set of rims with canti brakes in a single winter. Now I won't ride anything but discs in the wet and snow. They always work the same no matter what the conditions, the pads don't need replacement every couple of weeks, and they don't eat rims. What's not to like?

My commute is about 5 miles. It's all stop-and-go through city streets.