Devolution in progress.:thumb::p:D:twitchy:

I live in Idaho - where any jury would give me a standing ovation for shooting a punk trying to "blowdart" me while on my bike... Still, that level of escalation is so fraught with issues that I'll leave it to the realm of fantasy. However the idea does have a certain powerful appeal...

Drunk/stupid/brainless young men apparently see cyclists as defenseless fodder for their immature hazing and abuse. I've been spat at, screamed at, cussed at, splashed with water and beer. Fortunately the cretins usually miss the target.

I've learned to just shake my head and move on. Mixing it up with society's bottom-dwellers just doesn't seem wise once I get beyond the heat of the moment. I have a lot more to lose than they do.

My comment about getting a forty caliber sort of fell out of place. I do not recommend defending oneself on a bike with a firearm. Mainly that part was about getting a decent sidearm instead of regretting the caliber one got.

Flash camera still the best imo. Second the pepper spray but ultimately I'm just glad you made it here to tell us about it.

And yes lol some of us have way-out-of-the-mainstream hobbies.

Harv

I do not view it as OK for people to do mindless and cruel things to other people by any stretch of the imagination. Nothing would please me more than to see all such people caught and punished every time they commit such a deed. Having the victims take it upon themselves to exact the revenge is another matter entirely. That is actually how things were done routinely in Europe before about 1000 AD and of course that is the way things are still done in some parts of the world today. I would not care to live in 1000 AD or in the parts of the world that resemble it today. I would much rather that our justice system took care of such matters but of course as it is in everything else it does government is fairly incompetent when it comes to meting out justice. So instead we are teetering on the verge of a society that cannot bring itself to deal effectively with those who would prey upon decent citizens. Returning to the barbarian ethos of pagan Europe is not the answer, it is really just the same behavior wrapped in a mantle of self-righteousness.

If you want to get a feel of what life was like in such societies there are English translations of some of Europe's most ancient literary works available. There is a very fine collection of Sagas from Iceland that is utterly fascinating if you are up for it. It is a large volume but of course you don't have to read all of them. These were people who routinely took justice into their own hands but even though wrongdoers were often given their just and eternal reward people who were wronged frequently got the same treatment. A might makes right society pays scant attention to justice. Another glimpse into this world is found in the Volsunga Saga. It is a pretty good tale and a free version is available on line at that link. Sigurd, Gudrun, Brynhild, and the other characters are not shy at all about using lethal force to get retribution for wrongs slight and major but do they profit by that? Would you want to live in their world? This story in the form we have it is another Saga written in Iceland but the story is much more ancient than Iceland and the tale is from the Germanic tribes of pre-Christian Europe. It is a unique resource for that reason alone but it is also the source material for Wagner's Ring Cycle of operas as well as Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. Those who have read Tolkien's Silmarilion will recognize that he borrowed many of the stories in that work directly from this ancient Germanic legend and that work forms the foundation of the world described in his later and more popular works.

The most immediate problem with returning fire has already been mentioned but it bears repeating. I realize you are all crack shots who, like Walter Mitty, can hit your assailant at 1000 yards while riding on cobblestones and firing with your "wrong" hand -- at night -- without streetlights. That only exists in your mind though. No matter how good a shot you are, riding a bicycle while shooting introduces variables that will send shots astray. Most large American cities already have people who live their lives by this instant, violent code of barbarian justice. They go by many names, currently we tend to call them gangbangers. There is no slight so small that it cannot be put right by gunfire. I doubt that many of them are what you would call a crack shot and none of them puts much care into their work. And hardly a week goes by that some little boy or girl doesn't die in Chicago because their bullets missed the intended target. You may be better than that shooting-wise but bicycling prevents you from exercising your shooting skills properly and if you choose to return fire in crowded urban areas you are no better than them in other respects.

I'd rather see us all wear helmet cameras with direct wireless links to internet recording sites. Then if something happened we could just forward the video to the authorities, license plate numbers and all. That would work even in fatal accidents and attacks. I wish I could do the same in my car and have all the jerks on the road sent to remedial driving school. This is not feasible today, not quite. It won't be long before it is. Somehow we have to build a better society, Gudrun's life was nothing I would wish on any decent person.

Ken

The goal for me is not primarily justice, it is to preserve the sanctity of one of the things in this life I find most fulfilling - cycling. Justice is a stepping stone on the way to solving the overall problem, but I do agree that taking the law into one's own hands is not the right approach. As someone in this thread said, I have a lot more to lose than do these idiots.

This dramatic shift in my commuting experience is a small event in the larger picture which is the decline of polite society. I could write a book on how this new generation is dragging those before it down the toilet. To some extent, I blame my generation for not properly raising their children. To a degree I blame alcohol (even more than drugs).

I used to walk five blocks to kindergarten (in the snow, uphill both ways) in a time when my parents didn't have to concern themselves with their children being abducted by pedophiles. During my drinking days, a shot of whiskey came in a 1.75 oz. glass, now shots are served in highballs with energy drinks, and in a much higher volume. I literally know more people with DUIs than I can count on two hands, and half of those have served jail time for multiple or severe offenses.

Any number of societal changes can be blamed for influencing this demise. All I know is, it has become worse over the years - first I read about the escalation of the harassment, and now I have experienced it.

I live in a college town, and on my way home in the snow I ride past the most expensive place to live in the town, a private dorm. Atop of the 6 story parking garage were some students hurling snow balls at passing by cars. As I rode by I thought, as long as they don't send one my way I will just let them do what they do. Then, just as I thought that I was in the clear, one comes whizzing down past my head by about 2ft away from hitting me. I stopped, screamed obscenities, and proceeded to ride my bike up 6 stories after them. I would not normally approach any group of people to start a confrontation, however I know that these kids were all ******* and I could abuse them with words and avoid any physical contact. At the top there was no body except a tray full of snow balls. I broke them all and busted the tray over the door.

Just reading this thread is making me furious. My students "joke" about dooring me with their cars when they see me on the roads...I tell them that a U lock is very capable of breaking windows, and I will know the car that does it to me.

I don't know if I could help myself from beating them to a pulp the next day. I'd probably flash white with rage and not know what I'm doing. Disrespect makes me so angry I can't even stand it.

Ken,

With all due respect to a though out post, you have taken it to the extreme. No one is suggesting breaking down the judicial system. Other countries seem to do just fine with the death penalty, eye for an eye, and similar types of punishments.

We are a weak nation full of apathy and bleeding hearts.

This...

...and this.

It's funny - the only reason I consider carrying my lock is not to secure my rig, but to use as a weapon. What on Earth is the world coming to?

I was not speaking out against those although eye-for-eye punishment is too cruel in my opinion. I was recently injured in an accident that may have been the fault of someone else, I don't know because I have amnesia, no memory of that afternoon. If this was someone else's fault and not something stupid that I did I would not feel bad if the person responsible was given a ticket and made to repay my medical insurance (and me) for my medical expenses. I do not want to live in a society that would take the individual, break four of their ribs, puncture their lung, and give them a concussion. That is not right, sorry. I was commenting on the expressions here supporting individual retaliation with firearms or other weapons. People here are supporting that. That is gangbanger culture. I don't want to live in that society either. I'd like to see gangbanger culture eliminated from our society, not enshrined as normal practice by ordinary citizens. It certainly is apathy and bleeding hearts that perpetuates gangbanger culture here.

Ken

People who advocate for the death penalty are the real weaklings.

Sad - this conversation is even further off track now.

... because a murder's life is more important than the many lives he/she took and the hundreds of lives they've effected by their inhumane, disgusting, and selfish acts.

There is no repercussion for actions here.

*No, sitting in a room that society pays for, eating meals that society pays for, and having rights that we as a society hold true despite the fact that you've broken our laws, is not repercussion.

There are of course repercussions for their actions, without being caught or punished their are repercussions. In fact sometimes not being caught is the worst thing of all.

I won't condone state sponsored murder as long as there are options remaining. Even if these "gangbangers" are shooting darts at people or just your common everyday mass murderer(personally i don't think Hitler gave a **** about any death penalty) one must realize that killing them won't solve the real problem. It will only increase the problem.

Certainly not in the case of an accident. But what if someone came up to you with a baseball bat and intentionally did all that to you without provocation? OK, I still wouldn't advocate beating them up, though at that point they certainly should be locked up and given therapy until at least we were pretty sure they weren't going to do it to someone else again.

IMO the death penalty is appropriate for people who intentionally commit heinous acts with no provocation, do not show remorse and do not have a reasonable hope of ever getting to the point of showing remorse.

Slingshot and ball bearings. That's my open carry choice, and I'm a pretty good shot(standing, not on a bike, admittedly). Haven't had to use it though, and there's a good chance I'd never get a shot off in time, but just the CHANCE that I'd dent the bum's fender or break a window is enough for me. That said, I am looking around at cameras to mount on my helmet for just in case recording.

in some neighborhoods, that would give them even more reason to attack you

A literal eye for eye justice system would be barbaric and too harsh most of the time yet far too mild sometimes. In this case, for instance. The OP was not injured yet the behavior is unacceptable. An eye for eye justice system would let the perpetrator go free and then secretly hire someone to follow him/her around and shoot a blowgun dart in front of their face at a random moment as they went about their normal life. That would have no effect at all on their behavior. What is needed is a punishment that is disproportionate to the actual deed but proportionate to the potential for harm that results from the deed. This "perp" was probably just a young person doing the sort of idiotic things we all did at that age though most of us weren't that bad. Put the kid in a blaze orange suit and make him pick up trash along a highway for three weeks and then spend evenings serving soup at a homeless shelter. That might get through, a near miss with a blow gun dart certainly won't. When it was first implemented in around 3000 BC the eye for eye system was an advance, a reigning in of the kind of "justice" typified by the urban gangbanger culture we have today and the warrior code of barbarian Europe and the notion that a cyclist should be free to return fire with a firearm when attacked by a blowgun. In reality our modern political and justice systems are surprisingly little advanced over the ancient Sumerian system, yet even we can do better than eye for eye.

In theory I have no quarrel with the death penalty. Maybe that seems inconsistent since I don't support eye for eye justice that would inflict lesser injuries on guilty parties. In my opinion that would be a foolish consistency however and some individuals simply deserve to die for their deeds. Unfortunately I must reject the death penalty because human beings cannot administer it fairly. When DNA testing became available the attorneys for one Illinois death row inmate demanded and got a test of his DNA against DNA evidence collected at the crime scene. It proved the inmate was innocent. In short order every death row inmate that could be tested was tested and a surprising number were innocent, I don't recall the percentage. I would imagine that other states had similar results when DNA testing came in. The state of Texas once argued before the US Supreme court that one of their death row inmates had no right to a review of new evidence that might exonerate him because he had been fairly convicted before the evidence came to light and the state had the right to execute him whether he was guilty or not! This was reported on NPR in the 1990's. It is perfectly clear that states have and will murder innocent people in the name of "justice" because they are incompetent, or worse. That is the most horrific thing I can imagine in a democracy so I can no longer support the death penalty.

I honestly think that cameras and recorders have a great potential to gather the documentation needed to make it possible to identify and convict the offenders in all kinds of crimes like this, and far worse. I hope that in time systems like this will be implemented -- in public areas where the right to privacy is not compromised. It is far better than vigilante justice or the present impotence of our justice system in most cases like this, the OP's included. I understand the desire to take matters into your own hands though. When I was commuting by car every day there was hardly a day went by that I didn't fantasize about mounting a paint ball machine gun that would fire paint remover filled paint balls out of the grill of my car so that I could say thank you to the most deserving of my fellow commuters by redecorating the rear of their vehicles! That would be satisfying but a video uplink to the DMV would be far less corrosive of my character and society. If widely implemented I think it would put an end to most automotive misbehavior and it would help cyclists too.

Ken

If anyone shoots me with a pellet rifle or an air rifle or an arrow or dart type weapon of any sort they better make sure I am down and done for because when I get up, it is going to be my turn.

I was wondering when this would be stated. I find it interesting that people are horrified by the chance that an innocent is killed, but do not seem to be AS bothered by the fact that a guilty person who is not put to death going out and killing someone again. Or some other crime.

I'd be interested to know the stats ( theory here because we know it could never happen) on innocent people being put to death versus the number of crimes of people who would have been put to death after they are released.

For starters I wonder which is the greater innocent death toll?



To address a different side of this: I'm almost certain (did discuss this in a college class a few years ago) that those who were innocent were 1) in the south 2) black 3) had been sentenced 30-40 years ago.

Do not take this as I'm saying it's OK, but I would imagine that due to a change in the times the number of innocents would be less today. However, maybe that's just wishful thinking to a man who got out of Georgia and hasn't been back in a while.

I am a cyclist, a gun owner and married to a public defender so I have some insight into some of the issues that would come from a cyclist shooting at a car that just shot a dart at you. You won't get away with blasting at a car leaving the scene of a crime, which is what you would be doing. I have no problem with carrying a gun (my carry gun is a sig p232) but I don't carry it while on a bike. I wouldn't give somebody a hard time for doing so either, but for me I don't want the weight while I ride. A carry gun is a defensive weapon, not an offensive weapon, and using it against a car of people as they speed away is in an offensive manner. The gun owner needs to think his/her life is in grave danger at the time they use the gun, and if the car is fleeing the scene the threat is no longer a threat.

I really think the solution to acts of violence against cyclists is for the cyclist to record their rides with cameras and for the cyclist to keep aware of license plates. It at leasts gives the police something to go on in an investigation. If the perps got caught and were convicted of a serious crime, and the news media was involved, I think the incidents would be reduced rather dramatically.

I said nothing about that so you are making a completely unfounded and incorrect assumption. In my opinion people who would otherwise be given the death penalty should be put in prison for life, without parole. And prison systems should be upgraded so that these inmates cannot harm the prison staff. Our justice system being what it is, it will continue to sentence innocent people to this fate. However if they are not killed they at least have some kind of life and they retain the possibility of being exonerated, and compensated, at some point. You can do that for the living innocents, you cannot do that for the ones you have executed. Make no mistake about it, I want violent criminals removed from our society until it can be shown that they have truly reformed or are dead. I don't have any qualms about "warehousing" violent offenders who continue to present a danger to society. Releasing them so they can kill, ****, or mutilate another victim is as bad as executing an innocent person. It must not happen, yet currently it commonly does.

I think that DNA testing probably has reduced the incidence of convictions of innocents in capital (and other) crimes. DNA is not available in every case though so I am sure that the same old police tactics that convicted innocents in the past continue to do so today. In fact I happened to catch a TV report last weekend on the "science" behind arson investigations. As it turns out there is none. Many of the signs of arson that investigators have used for decades to accuse, convict, and in many cases execute people for arson crimes have been shown by scientific investigations to be false. They occur naturally in a high percentage of building fires. People have literally been executed based on what amounts to old wife's tales and continue to be to this day. The report included coverage of a woman who was accused of murdering her children by arson and who was facing the death penalty. The situation is a lot like the Salem witch trials, modern style.

How many more practices like this are deeply embedded in our police and criminal justice system? People generally try to do the best they can though there are horrific exceptions among our police, judges, etc too. Humans are unable to live up to our own high standards of justice and fairness even when they try with all their might however. Killing innocent people for crimes they never committed and in some cases which were not committed at all is unacceptable to me. Releasing violent criminals into society so they can rinse and repeat is just as unacceptable. I say let's do neither. Warehouse them all and release the ones that can later be shown to be innocent.

Ken

This has happened in the suburbs around here, too--joggers and bikers. They actually caught the guy who was driving the car, but the freak shooting the blow darts is still on the lam.

Amazing the things people will come up with to harm other people for no reason at all.

Awright fellas, let's keep the capital punishment discourse to ourselves, or take it to another thread in A&S. I as the OP am exercising my right to moderate this thread before it gets ugly. Let's keep it on topic with input about how to avoid confrontation or how to nab the perps without the use of firearms. I think we've covered most of it already. This post was as much a warning to others in my area was it was to glean information from others who have had run-ins with the underbelly of society.

RJM, I think you have put an exclamation point on the term 'weight weenie' :D

i haven't heard of this, all i get are shouts and people closely running up on me in their cars. If someone shot me with a dart, or pellet gun i'd just catch up at the red light and beat the living piss out of them (boxing background) and whoever else is in the car. That's why you carry a heavy lock, knife, and a pocket pistol for the different level of threats! I've never had to use any though, almost on some redneck old man who got out but quickly got back in his car haha

My one and only experience with an incident similar to the OP's was with a car load of teenagers, and one armed with an AirSoft. My instinct was not to catch the perps to do a major beat down, but to make a quick getaway when the carload circled around for a second shot.

My gratify moment came a few months later, when I read in the local paper, that a teen had been arrested for shooting a pellet gun at his neighbor's house that was only a few blocks from where my incident took place.

If you think about it, we are not the dominant species on this planet. We are here to serve microbes and insects. And they will be around long after we eradicate ourselves with our own stupidity.

Nice thought, but what about when there's no red light anywhere close? The people shooting riders up here (Seattle) with darts last year were doing drive-bys on roads where they could easily just speed away. And by the time you realize that there's a 3" dart hanging from you, the car is gone and you can't get a plate.

well then your pretty much screwed, unless you have a short temper, wartime ptsd, and have all the items in your bag as listed, then you fire back at them!