I have only gotten into cycling as of last year, mostly for commuting. My Giant Cypress DX was good to start out with but I want to upgrade to a more serious steel framed bicycle. I'm torn between the Salsa Vaya and the Surly Cross check. My concern is mostly weight and, from what I hear, Surly bikes can be pretty heavy... but the Vaya weight isn't published so I can't compare.

Can anyone tell me which frame is heavier? I just don't want a heavy bicycle that doesn't give me performance in return. Is it worth the extra $500 for the Vaya? Thanks!

They both have performance.

My Casserole weighs 21lbs, it's not UBER light, but it's good enough.

If you really want performance and weight savings you'd be best off buying a frame and building it up yourself. The maximum difference between a light or heavy steel frame is only a couple lbs.

Only 21lbs? Nice

The frames for both the Cross Check and the Vaya weigh between 4.5 and 5lbs without the fork (assuming a 56). The disc fork on the Vaya will be heavier, not to mention the disc brakes, hubs and rotors. So with everything else being equal, the Vaya would be the heavier bike. If you don't need disc brakes, the Crosscheck or Casseroll would be your lighter choices.

If you'd like your cake and a disc brake too, you could always build a Crosscheck or Casseroll from scratch, with disc hubs, a disc fork and disc brake on the front only. I retrofitted my own commuter this way and love it.

Just curious, what made you decide on a steel frame? All the talk about the smoother ride? Make no mistake, they're ALL stiff. May as well get one that is corrosion resistant without any extra treatment on the inside.

I was leaning towards a Cross Check too. But the Specialized TriCross Sport has an aluminum frame, carbon fork with Zerk spacer, equal quality derailleurs, and brifters instead of bar end shifters. The stock seat was replaced with a Brooks Champion Flyer, which more than makes up for the difference between steel & aluminum frames when it comes to shocks going into my bum. I suspect the stock saddle on a Cross Check would also need replacing pretty quick with a Brooks.

If you're really stuck on the steel frame, another one to consider is the Gary Fisher Lane. It has the brifters too.

I bought the TriCross as a second "upgraded" bike, but my commuter (the SC3) is still much more comfortable, and pretty fast too. Maybe that will change when the Brooks is broken in.

I just happen to like the look of steel bicycles and I have had such hard rides on aluminum (in HS and this past year), I thought I would switch materials. I'm just looking for a frame that will last me as long as posible, and I can TIG weld so that means it can be repaired easily and pretty much for free.

I hadn't seen the Gary Fisher line before, I really like the LANE. Having brifters would be a BIG plus as well.
Took a look at the specialized, seems like a good bike, can you send me a link to your commuter?

While it's a heavy seat, I'm sure it does make the ride like butter. My friend had to order one 7 days into his cross country bike trip and said it was the best investment he made on or before that trip.

It's important to remember that weight isn't always the enemy, there's a reason I haven't seen anybody discussing why their 13 lb 4oz road bike is the best commuter ever.

Weight = Cheap OR Weight = Durability.

Finally a quote from one of my friends:

"Weight makes you stronger, quit *****ing. You're only getting stronger"

I kinda figured I would be replacing the saddle, good to know Brooks are so well liked.

I didn't notice the bar end shifters, ehh, would rather not have those. I also need to be able to add a rear rack and fenders.

First, I love bar ends and they are traditional on cyclecross.

Second the Surly CC is a bit heavy if you get the prebuilt because they built it HD! Mine weighs 25 pounds. Of course if I had built it with roadie components instead of mtb stuff it would weigh about 23 pounds and with light wheels closer to 22. Does this matter--NO.

The Surly CC loves fenders and racks and loves to eat dirt, pavement or whatever. In road trim with roadie wheels and tires (25c) you could get this bike down below 22 pounds or less IMO.



BTW, the WTB saddles is pretty good. I have noticed many recommend the WTB and the one that comes on the CC seems to have a loyal following. Frankly, I prefer the Specialized Avatar BG.

The shifters aren't a pain to use? I haven't use bar end shifters before.

Neither had I until I got a trek 520 a couple of weeks ago. At first they were awkward but now they are easy to use. I also put the brooks flyer saddle on, very nice.

Ok, thanks guys! The Salsa Vaya is too upright, the Garry Fisher is ok but I think I'm going with the Surly. I can add brifters later if I need to... too bad it doesn't come in that nice red anymore, just black and montezuma's revenge brown. No idea what crack they were smoking, oh well.

Well if the Salsa is upright, the Surly CC is not. I bought it in part to be able to tackle dirt roads but a secondary concern was to get a little more upright than my several Italian road race bikes. Yeah, I am more upright, barely, lol. It sits aggressive, more so than a hybrid or such as that.

I like my saddle above the seat, if you are one of those guys that think they need the saddle even or above the bars, either buy something other than a CC or get one two sizes too big. The bike has a short head tube and the bars are going to be low as you would expect as a result.

JFYI, measured the way Masi measures their CX bike the 54 Surly CC measures as a 56. The similar steel Masi also has a longer head tube and a sloped top tube so it will sit more vertical, for similar frame sizes IMO.

I'm just gonna throw this out there.

I've got a Cross Check, and I like it a lot. I built it up myself with 105/Ultegra components. I've also got a Kona Jake, which I rode for a while with the stock Tiagra components and then later upgraded to Ultegra. These two bikes weigh about the same, and the ride is very similar. The Jake is aluminum with a steel fork. I don't notice the fabled "feel of steel" when I switch to the Cross Check.

The reason I bring up the Jake is that it comes standard with STI shifters (and a triple crank if you have a preference there), and it's about $100 cheaper. As you say, you could add brifters later, but you should realize that it will cost you about $300 to do it later. I'd suggest that you ride the Cross Check and the Jake and see what you think of the different shifter options. Bar ends may not be bad, but IMO STI are sweet.

Finally, I feel your pain on the Cross Check color issue. OTOH, if you're willing to drop a little more coin, you don't have to be stuck with the ugly colors. Here's what I did with my Beef Gravy CC:



That said, I have to admit that the ugly colors are more conducive to using a Surly as it is meant to be used.

If you can/want to build it up yourself from the frame you can go with STI. Likewise, your LBS can order a special build. What I found with mine was that going with a special build is pretty hard to come in at the same price as buying the complete bike. Has to do with volume purchase of components versus what you can get them for individually unless you've got a lot of time to search or are willing to go with used stuff.

On the other hand, going with a special build let me build up the exact Cross-Check that I envisioned as the perfect commuting bike.

Oh...and it's quite a bit heavier than my carbon fiber road bike, but it will take a beating like I need my commuter to do.

Nothin' Ugly about that blue!

With the shifters, it isn't exactly that the bar-end ones are a pain to use, it's just that brifters (STI?) are so much easier. I don't know about y'all, but I shift a lot. I like to be in the right gear for conditions. I hardly ever have my hands down on the lower part of the drop bars. My knees hit my belly if I ride like that, hehehe. So I only do it if a headwind is killing me. That means every time I want to shift, I'd have to change my grip. It's worth thinking about.

As someone else pointed out, brifters don't cost more if you get them with the bike, but since they're higher end components, they cost a lot more if purchased separately. (unless you buy from ebay in the dead of winter)

One other concern I had with the brifters is that I couldn't shift multiple gears at a time. But I can. I have the Shimano Tiagra, and they will downshift two gears at a time, and upshift one. I hardly ever need to upshift more than one gear at a time. When I do, I can just shift the chainring instead of the cassette. Unless you spend more time at the bottom of your bar, hunched over, you should go with something that has the brifters.

Back in the day, shifters were on the diagonal downtube. (don't know what it's called officially) Back then, no one complained. It wasn't a pain. But you also don't see people voluntarily going back to it. (except vintage guys)

I think Surly chose those colors to purposely make the bike look cheap & grungy, so it would not be so tempting to thieves and thus make a better urban bike. Ditto with the brand & model stickers wearing off easily. If it looks beat up, it is probably less apt to get stolen than a shiny, racy-looing Trek or Fisher with big fancy letters. That's just my opinion. Guys who really cyclocross know it will look muddy & nasty and are not concerned about it.

Yeah, but it took a couple of months before I was ready to ride it in the mud.

I forgot to mention, with regard to Tiagra vs. 105 vs. Ultegra, I've got each of these on various bikes right now. The Ultegra shifters are better with shifting multiple gears at a time, but the Tiagra stuff is pretty good when properly adjusted and the 9-speed cassettes are much cheaper than 10-speed. So don't let the Tiagra components on the Jake worry you. I've got a few thousand miles on my Tiagra shifters, and haven't had any problems with them.

I like Tiagra-level STI shifters. They're reliable and crisp for what they do. I tried 105's and for some odd reason those did not shift as well as the Tiagra line on the bikes I have ridden and test ridden.

I loved the ride quality of the Casseroll. If a cheap Craigslist Cross Check frame and hand-me down parts hadn't fallen in my lap i would have probably gone with the Salsa.

I have 105 w/ RSX shifters and a Sugino compact double. Even with these "road" parts, fenders and rack etc mine still weighs close to 28 lbs and makes me wish i had a triple.

Wow, thanks guys, I have a lot to work with now!

Just realized you may have been asking about the Fisher, since it is my commuter. Since I never miss an opportunity to pimp my rides, I'll post pix of it too.











It's fake leather, but still comfy: