I am preparing to start commuting, hoping to get the bike all roadworthy this weekend. Earlier this last week, I succumbed to an additional 20% off sale and bought some A520s and some road shoes. I'm a newbie and now realize that I should have bought some shoes I could walk in. So, I'm planning to return the shoes and get a pair of mountain bike shoes (still researching which ones).

I'm also considering returning the A520s. The main reason is that I have a torn ACL in my right knee, so I'm thinking that I should get a pedal with more float (Time ATACs, for example). Thoughts / opinions about this?

I am 52 years old and my commute will be quite short - 4 miles one way, but it is quite hilly here in central New York. I also hope to take longer rides to enjoy the fantastic scenery once I get in shape.

Float is extremely important if you find yourself on your bike in deep water ;-)

Seriously, with a knee injury first and foremost go with a pedal that is comfortable. Float is important to some for different applications, but for commuting with a knee injury, I recommend the Crank Brothers line of pedals. Easy access to the clip in and depending on how you mount your cleats, the float varies. I don't need my shoes to be locked in one position - I can focus enough to keep my pedal stroke straight and do not require a no-float pedal to do it for me.

I'm not sure I buy into the float idea fully. I am tall, lanky, played a lot of basketball, and generally have great knees. However I feel fine with my Shimano M520. In fact, I feel very odd with the slight amount of float that exists. I prefer to find an angle that is in-line with the pedals and stick to that, float makes my knees feel wobbly and not secure. I'm not sure how to explain it, I would just say it's a personal thing. I don't know if it's worth returning the pedals before trying them though, you may want to give them a shot.

The amount of float you need depends only on YOUR KNEES. The knee injury may not make any difference.

Check the cleats that came with the pedals, if there are 2 sets, then the small cleats have little to no float and the larger cleat has a reasonable amount of float for most riders.

Speedplay frogs probably still have the most float for any pedal system.


The cleats in the linked picture are the ones that have float.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CDXGEQ/...SIN=B001CDXGEQ

PS: You do not need to use the platform that is also in the picture with mountain shoes.

I've got sciatic (SP?) nerve issues in my right hip/upper leg, so 'float' is very important to me, important enough that I use platform pedals. As long as I can move my foot around a little every few minutes there's virtually no issue with the nerve pain. My pedal of choice is the Crank Bros 50/50. The pins on the 'deck' help hold your foot in place, but make it easy to shift 'em around when you want. Also great for stop-and-go suburban streets where I'm constantly trying to avoid inattentive drivers.

A lot of commuters don't use clipless pedals. I used them for a few years then switched back to plain pedals and prefer them. I can wear any shoes I want, rest my foot on every curb I stop by without the nuisance of clipping in and out, and most people don't commute at race pace.

Since you have a lot of hills and a sketchy knee, remember to use a lower gear and spin at a high cadence, rather than using a higher gear and "mashing" at a low cadence. Spinning is easier on the knees.

Back when I started cycling, we had quill pedals with toe clips and toe straps. No float. I was just fine with that. That's just the way it was...

Then in the late '80s, I got a set of Dura Ace/LOOK pedals that didn't have float. I was still just fine with that.

My last switch was in the late '90s, to the (short lived) SPD-R Dura Ace, which do have some float. I have not had any problems... It took a little getting used to... but I wouldn't mind trying a zero float pedal again to see if I've gotten to where I like float, or if it just doesn't matter to me.

Notwithstanding surfrider's potential sciatic-induced requirement for wiggle room (which might shout platform pedal to some), I think most folks over-rate the need for float and under-rate the need to properly position their cleat for both yaw and fore-aft.

I'm not sure, really - don't the a520's have some float?

I would personally not recommend Crank Brothers pedals to someone with a knee injury. It's just my one experience, but I went to a fitter and knee pain was one of my complaints. He said while it doesn't seem to matter for mountain biking, crank brothers pedals let the cleat move around more than other pedals. Said if I wasn't having knee issue he wouldn't say anything, but since I was, using anything else might help - he suggested shimano spd's, actually, though he said he really didn't have any preference for which other pedal system to use. I got Time Roc Carbon ATAC's, and they've been absolutely fantastic. I might not even share my story - I mean, I got rid of my knee pain but I also got re-fit on the bike, and changed my pedalling technique so I'm not sure it counts. It's just that changing pedals did get rid of that real weird cleat feeling I had been having...kinda loosy goosy, just always felt weird even after a year of using the Crank Brothers pedals.

I was going to write more but I gotta catch some sleep.

The fitter I went to would say something different - he pretty much just put the cleats in the default position, he thought it was more important to work on pedalling technique - even power through the stroke (as much as humanly possible), and keep the knee going up and down in a straight line.

I think most SPD clipless from Shimano (not the SL ones) have about 4 degree of float. Since your commute is so short, I don't know if it is worth getting clipless pedals at all.

i went from spds to time, for more float. as i get older, my knees seem to communicate their displeasure with more urgency. i cant believe i didnt do this years ago.

i was also ripping my foot out of my spds on the upstroke, when i stood up :/

"Fitter" or defaulter?

I'd agree you don't indulge bad habits, and we might be close to saying the same thing. I didn't state the corollary to my comment above, which is if you are so biomechanically out there that you need all this extra float you may need some coaching more than pedal adjustments (like me with golf clubs). So in that sense I'd agree.

But a lot of folks use 4 or 6 deg of float to only have to get within 4 or 6 deg of their good fit, and may even be riding at a premature release in one direction and twice as far from release in the other direction because they gooned it up. And their knee pain, etc., is due to a combination of that bad fit and the bad bio mechanics in the first place.

It is one thing for a pro fitter to look at you and affirm that you are center mass in the bell curve, which I suspect you got. It is quite another thing to get a "this oughta work" standard answer akin to a low end bike shop size and set up and call it a fit - whether you pay for it or do it yourself - then confuse the need for more float with having missed being right in the first place, whether that be for the realities of your non-50th percentile body & style, and/or for your inaccuracy in executing the 50th percentile set up.

I have a torn MCL that has nagged me now for a year. All my bikes are shimano SPD (Road and Mountian). I think float is very important to my riding comfort especially since the injury. Some days I just need my foot knee connection to be in a slightly different position even from mile to mile. At this point I would never ride pedals without float in them, unless I was young and competitive and I'm not. There certainly may be better ones than Shimano in this area, but it's all I know and the float is quite adequate.

I have no idea what you mean by "defaulter". The fitter I went to doesn't work for a bike shop, he does bike fitting for a living. There's no way to say whether he's actually good or not just as there is with no other fitter - it's not the kind of thing where you can say for sure, and I've never been 100% happy with any fitter I've gone to (well - either of them).

What I can say is that I haven't had any knee pain since going to him and following his advice.

I have other issues that he seems to be helpless to solve - like saddle numbness, and my feet going numb. But his advice on pedalling technique (and his saying that the cleats are usually (though not always) best just installed in the default position, having a pedaling technique with even power throughout 360 degrees and keeping the knees in a straight line going up and down) did solve my knee issues. I mean, who knows really, that's what he said he did to my cleats, I don't have any way to really confirm that or anything.

I've always loved how my Speedplays have so much float. I was surprised that with the new setup and pedal stroke that I found I didn't care nearly as much about float any more.

So yeah, I think we're kinda saying the same thing - by being right with the fit and pedalling technique in the first place, I no longer needed much float in my pedals. I was rather surprised, but - that's how it's been. I don't know if I would want to get rid of it entirely, but it became much, much less important.

BTW on Crank Bros -- there is a dot on one cleat, they are not symmetrical. It gives you a binary option of float. If you mount the dot on your left, you get X float. Mount it on the right, your get Y. I can't remember what exactly X and Y are and whether dot on left is more or less, but it is easily found once you know to look for it.

I've consistently heard the Pro Float crowd tout the Speedplay frogs. This is the first plug I've heard for Crank Bros based on float, but then I need to get out more anyway.

I never liked the amount of float on my spd's - didn't really feel like they have much. That was like 15 years ago, though.

My Time ROC Carbon Atac's have plenty of float for me at the moment, and like the Crank Brothers I could switch which cleat was on which foot and get 17 degrees of float rather than 13 degrees (which I have now). Just fyi if you're looking for float.

I have knee issues and find float very important, as is initial adjustment. It's pretty easy for cleats to not be adjusted properly, and I get pretty bad knee pain if it's not in certain range (fortunately this lets me know what adjustment is good

For commuting I still use SPDs, but will probably switch back to quill pedals and toe clips... maybe even for touring too. Purely aside from knee issues, I prefer the versatility in footwear and clipless pedals really don't add anything to my commute. I think the semi-default logic of "must be securely fastened to pedals" is faulty. I mean I do love clipless and I've been riding them since they first came out, but there are a lot of advantages to plain old platform pedals.

I'm a confirmed Frog user, going on 12 years now. I really like the smooth float and especially like the quick and easy release when commuting. Both my knees are quite sensitive to the pressure induced by clicking out of SPDs - no pain but it sure feels funny. I'm using Shimano 086 MTB shoes and the cleats are recessed enough to walk easily.

PS, curiosity got the better of me, and I just checked Crank Bros site. To be precise, it appears the dotted-cleat-left-or-right position impacts RELEASE ANGLE, as distinct from FLOAT which they define as
I assume the larger-than-I-expected angle of rotation between the lower float number and the higher release angle number is basically restricted movement in the process of disengaging from the pedal. So my comment quoted is apparently wrong, the float is not adjustable.

I've always found these terms confusing and difficult to figure out. Now, I'm just hypothesizing here, but my theory is that the marketers want to use the largest number possible, and when they say "float" they're measuring the total angle - um, how to describe it....if the back of your shoe started as close to the bike frame as possible (possibly hitting the spokes on the wheel), and then you moved to to being as far away from the bike as possible without unclipping, I think maybe that's "float". Release angle might be half that - the angle between when your foot is straight back to when your foot is as far away from the bike as possible before it unclips - you know, the actual angle you care about.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but it seems like the "release angle" is always about twice the "float" value. 12 or 13 degrees of float? 6 degree release angle. If this is the case, then changing the cleat position so there's more release angle would also increase the float.

I don't know what else the difference would be between release angle and "float" - I can't think of any other definition that would make any sense and not have it such that increasing one would increase the other.

I think "float" refers to how much you can tilt your foot from side to side without moving your heel, but perhaps it also refers to how much you can rotate without clicking out. "Release angle" is how far you rotate your heel out from the chain stay in order to click out of the pedal.

Float makes up for bad cleat adjustment. Sit on table edge with feet hanging naturally and have someone outline your shoes on a piece of card. Then mount your scleats on the shoes so they match the outline drawn. For comfort put the cleat slightly behind the ball of foot.

Float refers to the number of degrees of lateral movement you have at your heel whilst pivoting on the cleat. If your cleat set-up preserves symmetrical float, your release angle would be float/2. Some riders, e.g. those that ride toe out or toe in, angle their cleats to get a fit more suitable to them.

Well I'm intrigued now. I haven't found an authoritative source yet, but I have founds lots of confidently expressed positions that, reading between a few lines, suggest that's a big oversimplification. Mostly extrapolating from the graphic here but consistent with some narrative elsewhere found in 10 min of googling. Allow me to back blindly over the dead cat a few more times with some inferences from what I'm seeing:

- It just makes sense that there is a difference between unconstrained rotation and slightly constrained. i.e. the cleat doesn't release in a nano-degree, but rather moves through some level of constrained rotation in the process of disengaging. Call it cleat taint -- taint float, taint release.

- It seems Crank Bros are very consistent in saying that their float (i.e. unconstrained) is 6 while their release angle (i.e. float + the extra constrained rotation) is 15 to 20.

- From the pic it looks like their 6 deg of float may be of total angle, i.e. +/- 3 deg to either side

- Extrapolating a bit, it looks like the 15 or 20 deg release angle may be one-sided. i.e. if you consider the awkward heel in release, you'd have a 30 to 40 degree total angle between heel in and heel out release.

- if that's right, there's on the order of 12 to 15 deg of taint. You're retained but constrained and not floating. My heel flick is not calibrated but staring at a protractor that doesn't look unreasonable.

I haven't found much distinction between float and release angle elsewhere. And this is one of the few cul de sacs of bike nuance that Sheldon did not dive deeply into before his time was cut short, RIP. If any Tech God knows, perhaps you can illuminate us.