Folks, need some opinion and advice for a wheel build.

New commuting bike frame is basically a cross bike and I might even use it as such in the future. However for the moment it will be all flat road.

Hubs:
Rear is a Nexus 8sp IGH, 36 hole
Front is an Ultegra, 32 hole

Rims:
Velocilty Dyad

Spokes? HELP
Should I go straight gauge spokes or a butted spoke?
Will be going 3x for a stronger and m ore conventional build.

Double-butted.

On my disc-brake commuter I run DT Competition (2.0/1.7) on all four sides. On my backup commuter I run DT Revolution (2.0/1.5) on three sides with DT Competition on the drive-side rear.

Both wheelsets are very strong, very durable, and very comfortable.

Except for "Man, they're cheap", I haven't heard a good argument for straight-gauge.

Butted, definitely. Triple butted if you can get them.

I usually build wheels with DT Champion 2.0 mm with above average spoke tension. Most run true for at least 15-20K miles, probably because I keep the tolerances at 0.001" when new. Those that don't make that far were taken out by cars and road hazards. No report of broken spoke, yet.

I recommend straight gauge because they are cheap and reliable. Also have a few friends who want the best...triple butted. These are more difficult to work with since they will twist more at higher spoke tension. Not much request of double butted spokes.

Agree with tsl. I've never heard any reason to prefer straight gauge except the price. And the price difference isn't that extreme, especially when you consider that a good set of wheels can last you a good, long while and are one of the most important parts of your bike.

Ditto on the 3X. The only thing I've heard against 3X is weight. And by weight we're talking about the few extra millimeters of spoke length required to build a 3X wheel. But everything I've read/heard would indicate that 3X makes a stronger wheel.

Some people will avoid "overbuilding" a wheel to save a few bucks and/or a few grams of weight, but when it comes to wheels, the money and weight involved seems so small next to the piece of mind that comes with knowing you have the sturdiest wheel you could have.

tsl's advice is good as far as it goes but if you want wheels that are truly tough, go with DT Alpine III. There's a couple of reasons, both related to the manufacture of the spoke. The spokes are 2.3mm/1.8/2.0mm. But the process of rolling the threads on to the spoke make the threaded end of the spoke close to 2.3mm. Since the thread is larger than the overall spoke diameter at the head of conventional spokes, the eyelet at the hub has to be larger so that you can pass the spoke through the hub...usually around 2.5mm. With a conventional butted or straight gauge spoke this leaves a gap between the hub eyelet and the spoke. As the wheel rotates around, the wheel naturally deforms with tension decreasing slightly at the bottom of the wheel and tension increasing slightly at the top of the wheel. That extra 0.5mm allows the spoke to move in the eyelet and can lead to fatigue at the elbow and broken spokes. If the tension of the wheel is low, it's worse than if the tension is high.

The Alpines fill the hole more so that there is less ability of the spoke to move in the eyelet. Less movement means less fatigue. The elbow of the Alpine III is also thicker and stronger than a 2.0mm spoke so it resists fatigue better. Less fatigue and more resistance to what little fatigue the spokes experience, why would you chose anything else?

Thanks for the suggestions and advice.

I'll chat to the mechanic/wheelbuilder to see what he can easily get (I am guessing that the Alpine III might not be easy to get here), but I'll be definitely double butted and will ask about the triple butted.

Several known wheel builders, including engineer Jobst Brandt, and Roger Musson, thinks that DT Swiss' "Alpine III" spoke is an abomination that solves no problems; regular double butted (2/1.8mm or 1.8/1.6m) are lighter, more aerodynamic and are likely to be more fatigue resistant since they can flex better. Since good quality DB spokes should last 50.000-100.000 km, they will outlast your IGH by far.
DT Swiss and Sapim spokes makes very good DB spokes; the "secret" to their good reputation is because they buy their spoke wire from metal specialist SMT Sandvik. But if your wheelbuilder only carries Wheelsmith spokes I would go with them too.

My suggestion is 36H 3X with 2/1.8 mm spokes and brass nipples.

Regarding your Nexus IGH, then be aware that they don't last long if used for serious off road/Cyclo-Cross; especially the early versions can be "torqued to death" and their sealing was quite bad.

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Regards

+1 There are also some DT spokes, like the Revolutions 2/1.5, that are so butted they tend to twist as you bring the wheel up to tension. For a first time builder, straight gauge or the DT Champions should be easiest.

If you're working with butted spokes and worried about wind-up, put a tape flag on each spoke so you can watch for it happening.

I would post this on the Bicycle Mechanics forum. Not that the people on this forum don't know what they are talking about but there are lots of people over there that build wheels for a living. They like to argue about things like which is the best spoke tension gauge. Of course you may end up with such a diversity of opinion as to be incomprehensible.

My completely uninformed but deeply held opinion is you should build the front three cross, the rear four on the drive train side and three on the other and don't bother lacing them, this accomplishes absolutely nothing except create extra work, particularly if you have to replace a broken spoke. Straight gauge spokes are better than double or triple butted.

Incorrect.

"Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic, allowing them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.
As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily-stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke holes."


Ref: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

The wheelbuilder will probably suggest 3x, but I'll bounce the idea of the 4x drive side off him.

The discussion about the triple butted spokes is probably moot anyway - I doubt that they'd be available here.

I didn't post in mechanics for that very reason - waaaay more answers (and detail) than I probably needed. Figured I'd get 95% of the knowledge for 5% of the hassle by posting here.

The hub is one of the newer models and is also the premium 'red band' - did a lot of reading here and in the other forums before deciding to spend slightly more on this model. If I do ride any cyclecross it won't be often or hard. It will be easier just to slip on a regular drivetrain to the frame if that looks like what I am using the bike for, but it is being set up primarily as a commuter at the moment.

Yes and yes. If you can search the bicycle mechanics forum for this topic, you will find a ton of information.

The problem with using a 4-cross lacing is that the spokes exit nearly tangent to the flange circumference, and on low-flange hubs they cross over the head of the adjacent spoke, increasing the strain at the neck. With a larger flange hub like the Nexus, there shouldn't be a problem.

I would just go with whatever the wheelbuilder recommends.

That all depends on where you're getting the work done. Some shops offer custom wheelbuilding because one of their wrenches knows how to lace and tension/true a wheel, not because the builder has any advanced knowledge of wheelbuilding theories and practices.

I took the hubs and rims down to the wheelbuilder and had a quick chat.

The front is easy - 3x with a double butted DT Swiss spoke.

For the rear I made the suggestion of 4x on the drive side and he had a think, then nodded that it seemed to be a good idea because the hub was so heavy. Possibly would be a good idea to go 4x both sides (ie not a lot of dish on the IGH compared to a cassette hub).

He has to email the quote to me later, so he was going to have another think about the rear lacing and get back to me.

Took the fork down to be cut today and looked at the finished wheels.

The mechanic had decided to go with 3x on the rear because the cross over with 4x was a problem on such a large flange hub. The spoke would have been past tangential.

I'll post pictures of the finished bike once it is ready to roll.