Ticketed for Running a Red Light
09-20-10 | 01:20 PM
#101
pedalphile
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,034
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From: ellington, ct
Bikes: trek 1200, 520, Giant ATX 970, Raleigh Talon
I commute in Manhattan and may be somewhat more sympathetic than others here.
Fact is, to stay alive, you can't be looking at lights, you have to look at cars and people. So I run a lot of lights whather I want to or not simply because in looking around for them, I'm taking my eyes off where they need to be. Still, I agree with the thoughts we want to be good citizens and obey the laws. Cyclists have an anarchistic reputation and it contributes to the number of arrests by cops that want to housebreak us.
Hard to say how to play this. I've been popped twice, once at a "Critical Mass" demonstration and once for lifting my bike up to throw it though a Taxi windshield (he'd knocked me down in a game they sometimes play). Both times I went to court. The "Aggression" charge or whatever, I got 6 months Probation. The Advocate and the Judge just arranged it. Stay cool for 6 months and it's expunged. Get popped again and you get tried for it. The other one simply got dismissed. Officer said "I can't find my notes".
You ride a bike in NYC and it's a different world. Kind of like combat in the Army. Talk about it and people flame your sorry ass. It's a parallel universe and the civilized rules of normal society will get you killed. Outsiders simply don't understand it so you'll learn to keep your mouth shut about it.
Fact is, to stay alive, you can't be looking at lights, you have to look at cars and people. So I run a lot of lights whather I want to or not simply because in looking around for them, I'm taking my eyes off where they need to be. Still, I agree with the thoughts we want to be good citizens and obey the laws. Cyclists have an anarchistic reputation and it contributes to the number of arrests by cops that want to housebreak us.
Hard to say how to play this. I've been popped twice, once at a "Critical Mass" demonstration and once for lifting my bike up to throw it though a Taxi windshield (he'd knocked me down in a game they sometimes play). Both times I went to court. The "Aggression" charge or whatever, I got 6 months Probation. The Advocate and the Judge just arranged it. Stay cool for 6 months and it's expunged. Get popped again and you get tried for it. The other one simply got dismissed. Officer said "I can't find my notes".
You ride a bike in NYC and it's a different world. Kind of like combat in the Army. Talk about it and people flame your sorry ass. It's a parallel universe and the civilized rules of normal society will get you killed. Outsiders simply don't understand it so you'll learn to keep your mouth shut about it.
After watching joeybike's crazy videos and reading his take on urban biking, I am convinced this is way to ride in such conditions.
He has come to the conclusion that if you rely on anyone else to keep you from being smushed, you will eventually be smushed. Assume you are the invisible cyclist, because in reality, it's not far from the truth. And being invisible, you are reliant on getting yourself out of the way. So long as you have some sort of forward speed, you have the ability to do this. When you are stopped at a light, one foot on the pavement, you're a sitting duck, make that invisible sitting duck.
09-20-10 | 02:22 PM
#102
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 106
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From: NYC
He has come to the conclusion that if you rely on anyone else to keep you from being smushed, you will eventually be smushed. Assume you are the invisible cyclist, because in reality, it's not far from the truth. And being invisible, you are reliant on getting yourself out of the way. So long as you have some sort of forward speed, you have the ability to do this. When you are stopped at a light, one foot on the pavement, you're a sitting duck, make that invisible sitting duck.
Lights don't kill cyclists, cars do. It is important to know what is happening with the lights, but it is WAY more important to know what the cars are doing. That said: paying attention to the traffic does not excuse you from paying attention to lights and signage, you need to be aware of EVERYTHING, cars, pedestrians, cyclists, suicidal-delivery-cyclists, rollerbladers, skateboarders, dog-walkers, motorcyclists, potholes, signage, lights ... all of those things can take your life from you if you don't maintain acute awareness at all times.
09-22-10 | 12:02 AM
#103
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,260
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From: Pacific, WA
Bikes: Custom 531ST touring, Bilenky Viewpoint, Bianchi Milano, vintage Condor racer
what pisses me off is the cops trying to use "safety" as a justification for what is, in all honesty revenueing.
....
This same thing happens in my sleepy little town. The local cops sit in wait near very quiet stop signs with good sight lines. They know these stop signs will be rolled through by motorists frequently, so it is easy pickings. They can pay their salary for the day in a half hour. I haven't been the victim of one of these stings on my bike...yet.
....
This same thing happens in my sleepy little town. The local cops sit in wait near very quiet stop signs with good sight lines. They know these stop signs will be rolled through by motorists frequently, so it is easy pickings. They can pay their salary for the day in a half hour. I haven't been the victim of one of these stings on my bike...yet.
They don't really care about the safety of the specific sign you're violating. They want you to be in the habit of always coming to a complete stop at stop signs. If you get sloppy at the "safe" signs, some day you'll make a mistake about which sign is "safe," or you'll miss some poorly-lit cyclist on the cross-street, or a pedestrian, etc. Rolling through a right-on-red is particularly dangerous behavior, since most drivers look left for conflicting traffic, and it's easy to miss crosswalk or bicycle conflicts on the driver's right. Stop, look both ways, then proceed.
09-22-10 | 12:10 AM
#104
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,260
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From: Pacific, WA
Bikes: Custom 531ST touring, Bilenky Viewpoint, Bianchi Milano, vintage Condor racer
But those people never put their money where their mouth is, and carry liability insurance for their bikes. Even though the "same roads same law" law requires this of cars, and even though people on bikes have (very rarely) killed and injured pedestrians in the past.
Unlike motoring, bicycling carries such negligible risk that it is included in the basic personal liability coverage of renter's insurance or homeowner's insurance. A million dollars of liability insurance for a whole family on bikes costs less than a month of minimal auto liability coverage for one car with one driver.
Here in Washington, the Legislature requires a paltry $25,000 per person bodily injury liability, $10,000 per accident property damage liability -- limits low enough that it's easy to exceed them in a fender-bender.
Meanwhile, personal liability coverage on even minimal renter's insurance usually starts at $100,000 or more. Many homeowners carry personal liability limits of $500,000, a million, or more. And that coverage generally extends to all named insureds in the household, not just one operator.
In fact, liability coverage for cyclists is so easy to get, and so inexpensive, that it's hard to find a policy that only covers bicycling liability -- there's no need for such a policy.
[Disclaimer: insurance policies vary by company and state. If you don't see my name on your declarations page, I'm not your insurance agent and I've never read your policy.]
09-22-10 | 08:10 AM
#105
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Joined: Sep 2010
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LOL the entire City of Chicago is set up incorrectly then. No, if the sensors were that sensitive, motorcycles would trip them more regularly, plus bicycles would trip the red-light cameras and get the flashy lights behind them when I see them sail through without even slowing down. But heck, with no license plates or identifying marks on bicycles to track them to an owner, what do bikes even care of a picture is taken from a red light camera?
09-22-10 | 09:32 AM
#106
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Hard to say how to play this. I've been popped twice, once at a "Critical Mass" demonstration and once for lifting my bike up to throw it though a Taxi windshield (he'd knocked me down in a game they sometimes play). Both times I went to court. The "Aggression" charge or whatever, I got 6 months Probation. The Advocate and the Judge just arranged it. Stay cool for 6 months and it's expunged. Get popped again and you get tried for it. The other one simply got dismissed. Officer said "I can't find my notes".
Never ridden in New York, just cities in UK, France, Germany and Australia, so what do I know?
09-22-10 | 12:52 PM
#109
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2
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From: Mundelein, Fremont Township, Lake County, Illinois, USA, Earth
Bikes: Giant Sedona, black, large, named Blackie
I've got one version of my route that takes me to a light. I'm on a residential street and I have to turn left across a busy street. There are no sidewalks on my side and not pedestrian button or crosswalk to the far side of the busy street (basically they don't want you walking across). I can't get the sensors to trip and give me the light. There aren't any cars on my street for 3-5 min. A re-route at that point is a bit over a mile.
I wonder if the ticket for jaywalking is less than running the red on the bike?
I wonder if the ticket for jaywalking is less than running the red on the bike?
09-22-10 | 01:33 PM
#110
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 612
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From: Silver Spring, MD, USA
I've got one version of my route that takes me to a light. I'm on a residential street and I have to turn left across a busy street. There are no sidewalks on my side and not pedestrian button or crosswalk to the far side of the busy street (basically they don't want you walking across). I can't get the sensors to trip and give me the light...
09-22-10 | 02:00 PM
#111
Very, very Senior Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,224
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From: Chicago
Bikes: 2012 Surly Troll, 1999 Hardtail MTB
"Kind of like combat in the Army. Talk about it and people flame your sorry ass.
09-22-10 | 11:56 PM
#112
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,260
Likes: 2
From: Pacific, WA
Bikes: Custom 531ST touring, Bilenky Viewpoint, Bianchi Milano, vintage Condor racer
LOL the entire City of Chicago is set up incorrectly then. No, if the sensors were that sensitive, motorcycles would trip them more regularly, plus bicycles would trip the red-light cameras and get the flashy lights behind them when I see them sail through without even slowing down. But heck, with no license plates or identifying marks on bicycles to track them to an owner, what do bikes even care of a picture is taken from a red light camera?
But it's quite true the inductive signal loops can be adjusted to reliably detect bicycles. Had a long back-and-forth with King County, WA transportation engineers on that -- they started out saying it was impractical, and ended up changing county policy to make it standard procedure to adjust signals to detect bicycles, and to mark the "sweet spot" of the inductive loops.
Not too long after that, Washington State actually passed a law mandating bicycle detection at demand-actuated signals state-wide. (Starting with new construction and regular maintenance, so don't expect all the signals to work properly any time soon....)
09-23-10 | 04:41 AM
#113
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09-23-10 | 07:30 AM
#115
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Potashville
Bikes: Reynolds 531P road bike, Rocky Mountain Metropolis, Rocky Mountain Sherpa 10, Look 566
It's my experience that drivers treat you like you treat them - ride aggressively, and you get aggression back. There is a big difference between being aggressive and being assertive. Heck, I've had taxi drivers slow down and drive in front of me so I could draft them.
Never ridden in New York, just cities in UK, France, Germany and Australia, so what do I know?
Never ridden in New York, just cities in UK, France, Germany and Australia, so what do I know?
I find that I can trip most light sensors by laying the bike over almost flat on top of them. As long as it's a metal, not carbon fiber, frame, it should be enough to trip it. There are a few that don't work this way, admittedly.
09-24-10 | 10:19 AM
#116
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Joined: Sep 2010
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09-24-10 | 11:24 AM
#117
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 23,208
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From: Seattle, WA
Cyclists generally have far more liability insurance for their bikes than the average motorist.
Unlike motoring, bicycling carries such negligible risk that it is included in the basic personal liability coverage of renter's insurance or homeowner's insurance. A million dollars of liability insurance for a whole family on bikes costs less than a month of minimal auto liability coverage for one car with one driver.
Unlike motoring, bicycling carries such negligible risk that it is included in the basic personal liability coverage of renter's insurance or homeowner's insurance. A million dollars of liability insurance for a whole family on bikes costs less than a month of minimal auto liability coverage for one car with one driver.
09-24-10 | 12:54 PM
#118
Tawp Dawg
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,221
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From: Anchorage, AK
Bikes: '06 Surly Pugsley, '14 Surly Straggler, '88 Kuwahara Xtracycle, '10 Motobecane Outcast 29er, '?? Surly Cross Check (wife's), '00 Trek 4500 (wife's), '12 Windsor Oxford 3-speed (dogs')
This seems very dubious to me. I predict that if a cyclist were to try and use any of that million dollars of liability insurance to cover themselves for a cycling accident - for example, the guy in Renton who killed the old lady on the Cedar River Trail - the insurance company would refuse to pay. I very much doubt that any renter's or home owner's policy will cover liability from a bike accident that happened outside the home. ( Among many reasons, I suspect that if I were wrong here, drivers would be doing the same thing instead of carrying specialized driving insurance... )
Obviously, you should check with your insurance provider and not just assume that you're covered. Most will happily accept an extension of your existing coverage to a low risk activity like cycling if it means keeping you as a customer; they will also happily deny payment on activities that haven't been explicitly outlined in your coverage beforehand, should an incident occur. Also, from what I understand, personal liability won't cover your medical costs, so you probably should still roll with health insurance.
09-24-10 | 08:02 PM
#119
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09-27-10 | 07:36 AM
#120
nOOb
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 120
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Bikes: Gary Fisher Tassajara Specialized Tricross
+1
After watching joeybike's crazy videos and reading his take on urban biking, I am convinced this is way to ride in such conditions.
He has come to the conclusion that if you rely on anyone else to keep you from being smushed, you will eventually be smushed. Assume you are the invisible cyclist, because in reality, it's not far from the truth. And being invisible, you are reliant on getting yourself out of the way. So long as you have some sort of forward speed, you have the ability to do this. When you are stopped at a light, one foot on the pavement, you're a sitting duck, make that invisible sitting duck.
After watching joeybike's crazy videos and reading his take on urban biking, I am convinced this is way to ride in such conditions.
He has come to the conclusion that if you rely on anyone else to keep you from being smushed, you will eventually be smushed. Assume you are the invisible cyclist, because in reality, it's not far from the truth. And being invisible, you are reliant on getting yourself out of the way. So long as you have some sort of forward speed, you have the ability to do this. When you are stopped at a light, one foot on the pavement, you're a sitting duck, make that invisible sitting duck.
It's my experience that drivers treat you like you treat them - ride aggressively, and you get aggression back. There is a big difference between being aggressive and being assertive. Heck, I've had taxi drivers slow down and drive in front of me so I could draft them.
Never ridden in New York, just cities in UK, France, Germany and Australia, so what do I know?
Never ridden in New York, just cities in UK, France, Germany and Australia, so what do I know?
09-27-10 | 11:34 AM
#121
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,242
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I'd go to court. Not to get off, but to argue the fine down. It's clearly set that high because of 4000# cagers running lights, causing lots of damage. Your 30# vehicle isn't going to cause serious bodily harm to anyone.
09-27-10 | 02:13 PM
#122
Chronic 1st-timer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,140
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From: Lakehood, CO
Bikes: ...take me places.
$270 is reedickulouse!
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