What he asked was: "Is there a lightning fast road bike out there who's only difference from a racer is the flat bar?"

Personally I'd rather have someone tell me up front that spending $2K - $3K on a top of the line flat bar road bike may not result in the speed gains I'm hoping for. Riding position is fairly critical when it comes to speed. If he understands that and still wants to spend the money, then fine, but I don't see a problem with letting him know that.

Maybe I should put this in the confessions thread, but my main commuter is a flat bar road bike (a 2008 Trek 7.7FX). I like it and after 3 years of commuting about 200 miles/week, I'm still not tempted to convert it to drop bars. It's lighter and slightly faster than my drop bar touring bike which is my alternate commuter. However, it wasn't like that out of the box. Brand new, it was actually slower than my touring bike due to poor aerodynamics. I did 3 things to improve this: (1) cut the handlebars down from 58cm to 50cm. (2) installed bar ends for different hand positions and a more "bullhorn" shape, (3) I changed the stem to something slightly longer and inverted it so it was at -6 degrees instead of +6. I measured various positions on the bike and it's slightly less upright than my touring bike. Slightly faster too. Still just as comfortable for me, and still fun to ride.

Nice to hear. I plan to enter a long ride this summer and I was considering reversing my stem for a couple of practice rides, to see how it feels. But, as it stands, I enjoy where it's at for my nice weather commuter.

Course most of those doing the re-educating started "been there done that" on flat bars and learned that one hand position tires the wrists and that there is no way to beat that head wind.

I believe the Specialize Sirrus Pro is one bike that the OP is looking for -
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/...port%2FFitness

Full carbon frame - $2,000. But that's what the drop-bar full carbon model would cost as well.

Another one (I just know because my dad was looking) -
https://www.rei.com/product/811742/ca...on-2-bike-2011

Cannondale Quick Carbon 2 Bike - 2011, $1899.00

Personally, I don't know what to think about the drop vs flat bars thing. I do think the drop bars are faster because of wind resistance - I say this from riding both into the wind. On the other hand, despite all the talk about hand positions and such, even if I switch hand positions my drop bar bikes are never quite as nice on my hands as my best days on the flat bar bike. You gotta get good grips (like the Ergon ones) for the flat bar bike, and handlebar extensions things so you can switch hand positions for a little bit, but I do find the flat bar a little less stressing on my hands than the curly ones overall.

I agree with the suggestion to use bullhorns. I've got horns on one of my bikes, and I love them. Their only drawback is that you have nowhere to hide (eg, the drops) on really windy days, but they would be much better than flat bars in that regard. For some reason, bullhorns just make a bike more fun to ride. I can't explain it, but my bullhorn bike is my favorite bike to ride for shorter distances (less than 30 mi), and it's just as fast as my drop-bar bikes unless it's really windy.

When i thought i wanted a new bike, I also bought the sub40. I enjoyed it for a good 2 weeks before i decided I wanted more and I currently ride my jamis ventura comp for everything.

I also thought that i wouldn't like drop bars, but the truth is I rarely use the drops and stay on the tops or hoods and that basically creates the same angle as any flatbar hybrid would. Do keep in my mind that i commute with a 20lbs bag on my back and using the hoods feel really comfortable.

Basically go with the drops man, it has all the things a flatbar has and more.

While I'm a fan of flat bar road bikes, many point out that they aren't as fast as drop bar bikes and, accoringly, it's silly to spend $$$$ on one. I bought a $900 version of the Giant Rapid, that had a carbon fork, Tiagra shifters, and a carbon seat post. I felt those components added comfort and quality to the base model. Yet, the LBS didn't even stock this model--I had to order it. But, they had many of the less expensive versions of this bike.

The point is the LBS's realize it's silly to spend $$$$ on a bike like this, since the extra money won't make it competetive with a cheaper drop bar bike, given the wind resistance issue.

Having ridden into the wind on both, I would say that even riding on the hoods or tops is more aerodynamic than riding a flat bar bike. My guess is that most flat bars are still wider than riding on the hoods so you have a wider profile against the wind...I don't know really, I just know it feels like I'm getting hit by more wind with flat bars, and can tell the difference between riding in regular position on flat bars and riding with my hands much closer to the stem (away from the brakes).

I mean...I can only tell when riding into a headwind. :-) Just sayin'...

Well, my guess is the OP likes flat-bar (it is a preference thing) when zipping around town and just needs some more gear and faster tires (for shorter sprints or when he gets some hill).
I like having flat bar on my 'round town bike, which is what I spend the most time upon, especially for hopping hazards.

i think it's more about how high your chest is elevated. Hybrids have a naturally higher angle between your legs and chest thus creating more....air friction. Even if i'm on the hoods of my roadie i can still decline down without having handling affected.

Except that with drop bars, your wrists are turned at a more natural angle when on the hoods than they would be on flat bars. I keep thinking that anyone who finds flat bars more comfortable has their arms attached wrong.

Is there data out there to back up what people are saying? I got to think there is, but it reads as if people are just giving their personal experience, and it might or might not be scientific. The nice post by Poulin appears scientific enough, but you can't make conclusions from it given his reversed stem and cut handlebars.

I wonder what the wind tunnel data say about the effect of the wider bars on drag? I wonder what effect stem angle has with a person on the bike for the flat bar, bullhorn, and dropbar configurations?

For me, the appeal of working less than the next guy does to go the same speed is huge! But, that's offset by the discomfort of the drop bar bike.

If I could know that at 20mph I can work 10% less on the drop bar bike, I might suck it up and make the switch. If I reverse my stem and reduce the work by 15%, I want to know that. If I cut down my handlebars saves me 20%, I'm taking my hacksaw off its hook tonight.

But if these changes net a 2% difference, I wouldn't do a thing.

cue the 'bent riders to come in and tell you how much energy you can save going recumbent...

One of the things I was trying to say is that I can feel the difference (when biking into the wind) between using a flat bar bike normally, and riding the flat bar bike where my hands are as close to the stem as possible so I'm..."narrower"...I guess you would say. I guess more upright vs less upright is harder to test, but it seems to me like it has less of an effect than having my arms out vs having them...narrower...

I mean, just my opinion and experience.

That doesn't quite make sense to me. On the hoods you end up resting your hands somewhere on the area between your thumb and your first finger. On flat bars (well technically they're usually curved slightly) with decent molded grips you end up resting your weight against the entire palm or your hand. Seems like the palm of your hand is a bigger area more designed for taking weight than the area between your thumb and fingers.

I don't care for flat bars because you get a single hand position. Two, if you add bar ends. I can put my hands in 4 different places on drops: tops, ramps, hoods, drops. (5, if you count invisible aerobars.)

Absolutely not.

Time trial bikes are pretty fast and they don't have drop bars on them.

My bike doesn't put me any more or less in the wind than a rider using drop bars just because my handlebars are flat.

I don't have super low bars, but many road bikers sit up higher than me. It's depends on handlebar height and reach, not handlebar shape.


And I have lots of hand positions with these barends. Holding the ends of them and putting my elbows on the grips puts me in a very aerodynamic position.

Being a big overdramatic? :-P

There's no doubt there's data out there somewhere that shows that you're faster with drops than regular straight bars.

Not that that negates your other point, though - that if you have a way of putting your body in an aerodynamic position with flat bars then it doesn't matter.

Your setup is interesting, and the picture is self-explanatory - awesome. The one drawback (like with using aerobars) is that you cannot ride in the aerodynamic position at any time that you would might need immediate access to your brakes. If you're riding rolling country roads, or on the street in stop and go traffic you cannot spend much time in the more aero position because there are no brakes on the end of the grips.

I'm not trying to say good or bad on that at all, just saying that's the reason why group rider use curly bars - because they can be aero while still having their hands on the brakes.

You could get the blazing fastest bike you can find and then switch out the drops for flats.

Of course, if the rider is not fast, the bike won't be either, regardless of the handlebars.

Not a study per say, but an interview with a guy that does wind tunnel tests for amateur triathletes.

It's all about reducing frontal area. This isn't the only the video in the series. The prior ones deal improving the biomechanics by changing rider position, etc. There is a point at which they conflict. Better biomechanics may detract from aerodynamics. A more aerodynamic position may detract from comfort (as you indicated) and ultimately decrease power output.

If you really want a faster bike, get a recumbent or a velomobile. Short of that, you need to get your head down and your arms in. Drops aren't really the best for that. Aerobars are better. They are very comfortable to ride on too, once you get used to them. The problem with stock flat-bar road bikes is that the bar is too high and too wide. Putting aerobars on a bike not designed for them isn't ideal either. The top tube is usually too long. You want your elbows bent at approximately a 90 degree angle.

A drop bar represents a compromise. It's not as aero as an aerobar but gives you better control. It doesn't give you as much control as a wide flat bar but lets you vary your position to enhance comfort and aerodynamics.

I'll grant that the pressure is distributed a bit better across your hand with a flat bar, but I generally don't have problems with the amount of pressure on my thumb when riding on the hoods of a drop bar. I can also move my hands back just a bit to the bends and then I've got the whole palm thing going on while retaining the supreior wrist angle.

The wrist angle is my main point. If you just relax your arms and let them hang at your sides your hands naturally turn with your palms more or less in. It takes effort to keep them in a palms back position. So when you're holding a flat bar, it creates a bit of extra strain. On top of that, the angle at which your arm approaches the bar becomes super-critical to avoid having to bend your wrist. By contrast, with properly fitted drop bars it is almost impossible to bend your wrist in an uncomfortable position. It's as natural as shaking hands.

I'm sure you can get very "aero" with the setup. However you don't have access to brakes or shifters unless you're using what would be considered the "tops" on a drop bar, - the least aerodynamic position.

Time Trial bikes aren't so great for stop/start riding that's typical in commuting. The brakes are out on the horns while the shifters on the aerobars. The horns are also much narrower than a stock flat-bar.

Thanks and I agree. That's probably the best reason to use drop bars and why they are required for UCI sanctioned mass start events. Note that variants of flat bars are predominate in events such as time trial and triathlon which do not require the use of drop bars.

When I said I don't sit up as high as many roadies, I meant while holding the grips with elbows slightly bent, not while perched on the ends of my longhorn barends.

Also true and good point that I can't safely use the aero position in the city where I usually ride. That's one reason (but not the principle one) that this bike is rarely the one I commute on.

I did use the stretched out position on a group ride recently and coasted past the roadies while the had their shoulders pinned against their handlebars in the fast descending position. Hands on the flat part of their bars, I should note.

I must confess, it's likely I passed them due to a difference in rider weight more than from aerodynamics.

What do you perceive as the cause of the discomfort of the drop bar?

As has been pointed out, you can manipulate flat bars to give you all the aerodynamic benefits of drop bars, but you end up with your hands in the same place they would be with drop bars and your body in the same position. So, if the crouched position is what you're objecting to, then a "fast" flat bar road bike will have the same drawbacks as a fast road bike.

So the question becomes, is there data for the benefits of a more aerodynamic position? There is, of course. I think the benefit is closer to 10% than to 20%, depending on just how aerodynamic you get.

The flip side is that you can set up a bike with drop bars to be every bit as upright and comfortable as a flat bar bike. The comfort is all in the setup. The big advantage of a drop bar bike is that it gives you 2 or 3 aerodynamic variations apart from the micro-adjustments you can make with your body position. On a flat bar bike, you can crouch down lower and tuck your elbows in, but it's a very unnatural way to hold the bar. With drop bars, if you want to ride along lazily in a very upright position, you can put your hands on the tops. If you want to get fast and get low, you just lean down and grab the drops. If you want something in between, you ride on the hoods. The bars are made for all of this.