I-Like-To-Bike

That's true. I evaluate products on this list by what they might do for me and others who are considering commuting circumstances.

There are some bicycling aficionados who get bothered and all bent out of shape about products that are not the latest and greatest, have incorrect brand names, aren't bought from an approved sales outlet, or don't meet the requirements of the dispensers of conventional bicycling wisdom. All bogus considerations in my opinion.

I-Like-To-Bike

Good thinking.

tjspiel

I understand why some people may not want quick releases on their wheels, but personally I think they make getting the wheel off a lot easier and simpler. If I don't have to go fumbling through my bag for a tool, all the better.

That aside, I don't know that it's the nutted axle that's really the source of complaints when it comes to removing the wheels with Shimanos IGHs. It's the shift cable. If you know the trick it's not too bad to get off and on but it can take a little futzing, especially if it's not something you do all the time.

If you haven't installed the Alfine/Nexus yourself and are staring it wondering how to get the cable off, you may come to the conclusion that you have to loosen the cable from the pinch bolt. That would add a great deal of time.

Also, with an Alfine the wheel has to be oriented a certain way, there's anti-turn washers which have to be put on the correct side and hopefully you haven't lost one while you were working.

I don't want to make it sound worse than it is, my guess is that it takes an extra 5 minutes over changing a flat on a quick release wheel. I'm sure someone who works on IGHs at a shop day in and day out could cut that down to a minute or less but that doesn't apply to most of us.

chucky

I think it's harder to change a flat with a derailleur because the spring loaded mechanism pulls the greasy chain in the way. I think that those saying it's hard to change a flat with an IGH simply don't know how to do it:
-Why are you disconnecting the shift cable? All you need to do is shift to the gear where the cable is slackest; That should be plenty to get the wheel out of the dropouts.
-Why are you taking off the anti-turn washers? All you need to do is loosen the axle nuts; No need to take them or the washers off the axle.
-You'll waste far more time locking your quick release wheels every time you lock up than I will ever spend "fumbling" for my wrench (which I have rubber banded to my tire levers) for the occasional flat (which I go to great lengths to avoid...simply because removing tires and patching tubes is a task whose difficulty is generally unpredictable depending on the the exact tire, rim, age of glue, weather conditions, etc).

Either way the overwhelmingly hardest part of fixing a flat is getting the tire on/off the rim and hoping that your patch works (lots of things that could go wrong there: contamination, excess glue vulcanizing tube to tire, bad luck, etc). The difference between QR derailleur and IGH are trivial by comparison (more like 5 seconds than 5 minutes...although I'm not sure which one is slower).

PaulRivers

Actually, my question for the OP is - what kind of weather are you riding in?

If you're riding where there's snow and ice, an IGH can make a difference in maintenance and avoiding the possibility of the gears icing over. And if tjspiel switched, hey, he would know. :-D We both live here in Minnesota.

However - if you're riding riding in snow and ice, I also own an IGH bike and have found the supposed benefits of an IGH for reducing maintenance in non-snow-ice conditions *highly* overrated.

The thing is that once you have the derailler set up and the cable broken in, the vast majority of your maintenance is still with the chain. And if you're adding an IGH onto an existing frame a chain is your only choice. Either way the chain is still exposed to the elements, it still needs to be cleaned or replaced regularly, etc etc. I'm just saying that for winter riding where there's snow and ice an igh has some noticeable advantages, but if you don't have snow and ice there's not a *huge* difference in maintenance.

Owning an IGH, and igh seems like it's slightly slower. It does make the bike heavier, you lost that sprightly feel. In my experience it is a little more difficult and time consuming to change the tire/tube. It's not horribly difficult or anything, the biggest drawback is trying to remember how it's done when you need to do it because it's different. An IGH also tends to be more expensive upfront than a derailleur setup.

None of these are monumental drawbacks, however as I said the question is what are you getting out of having an IGH. If you're not riding in snowy icy winter I'm not sure you're gaining much either.

Another question is - if you just bought a used frame, are you sure you can put an IGH on it without a chain tensioner? An IGH either requires a different kind of dropout on the back vs what most derailler bikes come with. You can also add a tensioner, but then you're halfway to a derailleur anyways.

Now to be fair... :-) - I don't think a Chris King hub and such is worth the expense either, so I might not do either.

fietsbob

My Rohloff has the gear range of an MTB, I use them all getting to town center
and back, as I live on a bit of hill.. ,
fight headwind one way , get a tailwind the other..
winds reversed in the winter ..

mikepwagner

My sense - after reading a lot of these threads - is that the choice of IGH vs non-IGH is largely aesthetic.

I don't mean aesthetic in the sense that I am am going to specify which one is more beautiful, but in the sense that the is probably not a functional or engineering choice.

I suspect that both IGH and cassette/derailleur are a good enough solution for almost all of our actual needs that the choice revolves around what appeals to you at a personal level.

Pick what you like.

I drive a Toyota Carolla to work, one of my good buddies here drives a 911. Both are reliable enough to get us to work. My choice is what he calls - accurately an "A to B" car. In other words, I want a car that reliably gets me from point A to point B. His choice is what I call a "hobby" car - he works on it every weekend, and gets a great deal of satisfaction from it.

He would be unhappy if he had to drive my car to work., and I would be unhappy driving his car. Aesthetic choice.

So my question is what is the right thing to do?

You can build a reasonably reliable and functional commuter with either system.

Pick the choice that appeals to you the most.

If you think that if you go with an IGH, you will be riding around thinking, "I really hate the extra weight of this thing!", then go with a derailleur/cassette.

If you think that if you go with a derailleur/cassette, you will be riding around thinking, "I wish I had checked out an IGH!", then go with an IGH.

My next bike will likely have an IGH, a carbon belt drive, and hydraulic disc brakes - becasue that's what I think would be fun to ride.

Mike

Pedaleur

The correct answer is, "Get one of each."

fietsbob

or both at once..
Sturmey Archer, and SRAM, dual drive..
Both combine a cassette free-hub driver,
and a 3 speed IGH, instead of a triple crank.
one chainring..

chucky

Only if you're doing unnecessary maintenance for the IGH bike. Here's a chain of mine (IGH) that just gave up the ghost this very afternoon after about 5 years of hard use (all seasons in NE USA) without any lubrication (purged it with degreaser), cleaning, or replacement:

Not sure how many miles it's been, but the chain outlived 4 rear tires (32mm+ wide, not sissy racing tires), 1 saddle (wore through the cover), 1 bottom bracket, and 1 set of pedals (bearings wore out).

Of course, since it's a free country, you can faff about cleaning and replacing the chain if you want, but that's not the fault of the hub or the chain, it's the fault of the derailleur mindset. The only thing you'd be "maintaining" in that case is your own peace of mind because the hub and the chain don't care.

PaulRivers

...I'm honestly not sure what you're saying, your tone disagrees with me but what you say seems to just say that your chain didn't require much maintenance either, which I wouldn't disagree with. A derailler doesn't really require any maintenance for regular (non snow and ice) riding once you get it set up and the cable stretched out, I agree that the chain doesn't actually "require" much maintenance either for either a derailler or igh.

chucky

I'm saying the chain on an IGH doesn't require any maintenance whatsoever. Just like the bottom bracket you can just ride it until it disintegrates...except the chain will last longer.

This isn't so with a derailleur. Derailleur chains need to be oiled and replaced fairly regularly (ie more than once every 5 years...especially under harsh winter conditions with salted roads, etc) or shifting will be compromised or worse.

fietsbob

I lubricate and replace my chains, to keep them from taking out
the rest of the chainwheels in wear transfer.

On a single speed , a fully bushed chain wears longer, bushing is inside the roller ,
continuous from one side to the other of inner links.
Derailleur chains now are just supporting the roller on the end edges .
that is the metal edge of the hole material, punched in the inner link..

in exchange they are laterally flexible ..

PaulRivers

I rode my last derailler bike about 8 years I believe before the chain actually gave out. Admittedly not every day by any means.

I have to admit I just don't find myself with the energy to get into the debate again. I'm just saying, I own both derailler and IGH bikes, and I don't see any change in the maintenance. Even if the chain does last twice as long with an igh, I would still stick with a derailler for summer riding (including riding in the rain) as replacing the chain and cassette every 3 years would be worth it for me, and it would take a while to make up the cost difference in the long run. And technically either chain requires adding a little oil after riding in the rain a few times to keep it from squeaking.

I await the OP's reply about whether they're riding in regular snow and ice kind of stuff.

dynaryder

Pro Tip #1 - spin the shift cable barrel adjuster all the way in to get extra slack.
Pro Tip #2 - get some flourescent paint,and put some inside the track the cable goes in,with a different color where the nut goes. Makes
it much easier to see in bad light.
Pro Tip #3 - get a SRAM hub. Much easier connectors than the ones Shimano uses.

SouthFLpix

Here is a video showing how to remove a wheel with an IGH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGEXjpXtw4g

To me that seems much more complicated and involves more tools then removing a QR wheel. You can remove a QR wheel in under 15 seconds.

Pedaleur

For my sanity, oil your darn chain!

:squeaky, squeaky, squeaky:

gear

Thanks for the tips, I already have an Shimano and a SA so I'll just do #1, #2.

vwhammer

Yes I will be riding in snow and ice.
I am in Ohio.
While we do not get the crazy nasty snow here it does get bad pretty regularly during the winter.

I have a short distance (maybe a half mile) on a four lane highway.
I am sure this will be all slush which will quickly coat a deraillure set up front and rear with slush which will quickly become ice in the colder temps.
Then there will be about 8 miles of paved bike path that will have no snow removal what so ever.
Then lastly there will be a 1 mile stretch of double track gravel which will also have no snow removal and has standing water nearly all year round.

If I choose to avoid the highway section during the winter (think... slush hitting you in the back at 40-60MPH) then I still have to ride up through town (more slush) an extra 3 miles to get to the bike path then and extra 2 miles on the bike path.

To top it all off all of my road riding will surely include a healthy dose of salt.

All of this will lead to a pretty nasty environment for any drivetrain.

For this reason and the simplicity of not having a front deraillure I think I am leaning towards the IGH.

chucky

Squeaks? If your chain squeaks it's probably because those weak derailleur springs aren't providing enough tension or maybe you have one of those tortured chainlines typical of derailleur setups.

I never lubricate my chains and they never squeak.

That's because the video is showing dumb dumbs how to fully remove the wheel. It's equivalent to removing the wheel plus derailleur...you don't need to do that if you're just changing a flat.

Once you have the wrench in your hand, it only takes 15 seconds to loosen the axles (and getting the wrench doesn't take any extra time because you need your tire irons anyway).

tjspiel

You don't need to grab the chain with your hands. If you move the wheel forward it pops right out. At worst you could use the derailleur arm to pull the cage back out of the way.

Because it's easier to change a tube with the wheel completely removed. If you're just going to patch then you don't need to remove that wheel at all, but in the end that will take longer.

Yeah, you're right, I was being an idiot. You don't need to remove the nuts completely or the washers.

Rubber banding the wrench to your tire levers is a great idea !

As far as locking the wheels goes, that's not something I need to worry about on my commute. I do lock the wheels at other times but I'm almost never in a hurry on those occasions anyway.

I agree that if you're going to patch, that will have a greater impact on your repair time than whether or not your bike has an IGH, but I carry a spare tube for that reason.

tjspiel

Yeah, I switched, but I haven't experienced a winter with an IGH yet.

The decision was based on what other folks have said about IGHs and my previous winter experiences with derailleurs. I also have heard about early models of Nexus hubs that were basically destroyed by winter riding and other people that have had IGHs fail after a few years of regular use. So I'm not 100% convinced that it's the better way to go but I wanted to give one a try.

I've probably put a couple hundred miles on it so far and I'm happy with it but there are pros and cons. Adjusting the shifting is super easy. The drive train is really quiet. Shifts are smooth. On the other hand, the range isn't what it was and the gears are spaced farther apart. I'm a little nervous about the off road durability but the bike is mostly intended for commuting. The character of the bike has changed a bit too. Like you said, it doesn't seem to be as sprightly. It feels sort of like it's been domesticated. Could be all in my head.

irwin7638

I liked the Nexus 8 hub that I had until it broke

https://simplecycle-marc.blogspot.com...black-box.html

The damaged part could not be replaced

https://simplecycle-marc.blogspot.com...b-v-final.html

I intend to replace it with an SA 3 spd.

I use a Nuvinci on my summer townie and like it a lot. At $350 it
Seems to be a better deal than Shimano or Sram.
https://simplecycle-marc.blogspot.com...vinci-hub.html

Overall,I definitely want an IGH on my commuter/townie. It's much better to deal with stop and go traffic.

Marc

Pedaleur

Another small plus for IGH that the OP didn't mention in his list, though I find the difficulty shifting under load to counter the positives a bit.

chucky

But you can completely remove the wheel without disconnecting the shift cable...you just can't take it more than 6" away from the dropouts (depending on where you have the cable holding frame braze ons...if you don't use the ones in the rear then you can get several feet of distance between the wheel and the frame).

I often patch because I'm afraid I won't be able to easily get the bead back on once it's completely off or that the inside of the tire will become contaminated with glass particles...especially since riding on well traveled roads usually causes the tire/rim to become caked in a slippery and abrasive mix of grime and glass particles. Then I do a full inspection and cleaning of the tire, rim, and tube when I get home to ensure that nothing abrasive has gotten inside the tire and that the patch is good (although I may start replacing the patched tube with a new one at this stage because they sometimes fail later even after the initial road test plus inspection).

I think riders that claim it's so easy to fix flats (especially with derailleurs) waste an awful lot of time cleaning their bikes or don't ride them enough to get them dirty. Overall I've found that there's really no efficient way to deal with flat tires. They're a complete nightmare for 9 months of the year, so I try to prevent them at all costs with careful selection of tire liners, tires, and tubes.