zoltani

Not necessarily, but if you want to go there I particularly like Vik's blog about saftey:
https://thelazyrando.wordpress.com/20...-traffic-cone/

njkayaker

Woosh! You missed the point.

The issue is which uses less.

zoltani

woooosh! Didn't read 7 pages of complainypants posts, sorry if i missed it

zoltani

Although this one is pretty tame, the thread in C&V made it over 20 pages.....so i guess we have some work to do!

alan s 

Must be a lovefest over there or something.

Andy_K 

His argument seems to boil down to "it looks uncool and isn't usually necessary." I actually tend to agree with both premises and I only worry about reflective gear at night (which he seems to semi-endorse) or during long rides on rural roads. The fact that it looks uncool, however, isn't really a compelling reason not to wear it, particularly when cycling is viewed as a purely practical activity.

zoltani

I thought it boiled down to safety. Cycling is a safe activity.

Walking in the city is probably more dangerous, do you wear neon yellow when you walk around town?

see https://map.itoworld.com/road-casualties-usa#

Andy_K 

Yeah, but that's not an argument against reflective gear unless you add "it looks uncool" to it because, sure, cycling is a safe activity, but it's even safer if you're more visible. I had a bit of an "Aha" moment a couple of years ago when I was riding on a rural road. I saw a cyclist more than a half mile ahead of me wearing a hi-vis vest (actually all I could see was the vest -- I assumed it was a cyclist). If that same cyclist was wearing "normal" color, I wouldn't have seen her until I was much closer. That doesn't matter most of the time, but on rural roads like that cars are approaching at pretty high speeds and they aren't always watching the road. The sooner I register in their mental picture of the road ahead, the better.

BTW, I was passed this morning by a driver who was texting was going around a turn. Let's not exaggerate how safe cycling is.

Andy_K 

That's a really bad comparison for a number of reasons, the simplest of which involves the amount of time spent in the roadway. Other than cyclists, who do you see wearing reflective vests? A: People standing in or near the street while working.

tjspiel

I used to wear a reflective vest whenever running on a road at night. This was when I lived out in the burbs where there was often not a sidewalk or path along the road and little if any shoulder.

alan s 

So I am wrong in feeling much safer walking on the sidewalk/crossing at a light than riding a bike in traffic? Statistics that compare the number of pedestrian fatalities vs. bike fatalities are nonsense, given the far greater number of pedestrians.

tjspiel

I think crossing at a light can be as dangerous as riding in traffic. I've had some close encounters with drivers making turns who didn't bother to check for pedestrians.

It's not an argument against wearing reflective gear, just an observation.

When I was hooked by a car, the first thing the driver said to me was of course: "I didn't see you."

Drivers look for other motor vehicles first and foremost. Cyclists and peds? Not so much.

njkayaker

You didn't even read the post you were criticizing!

Andy_K 

True. That was a very interesting map, but it seems to me that it is essentially a map of population density. Purple indicates high population, trending to blue in areas of very high density. The real thing we should be getting out of that map is that cars are screaming metal death traps.

zoltani

And no amount of hi-viz stuff or lights is going to save you from that texting driver. Not saying that means you shouldn't wear it, just don't let it give you some false sense of "safety".

Andy_K 

I disagree. With a texting driver you need to register in their peripheral vision, and a really bright yellow jacket gives you a better chance than dark or neutral clothing.

Anyway, there's clearing a mixed message emerging here. (A) Cycling is safe. Just go out and do it. (B) Be careful that reflective clothing doesn't lull you into thinking it's safer than it really is.

OK, so if there's a danger that I might think it's safer than it really is, then I should probably take some precautions, right?

zoltani

Cycling itself is a safe activity.

Again i will post this image. Where does it end? At what point are you "safe" enough?

Andy_K 

The problem with that is that he looks like a dork, right?

The point at which you are safe enough is the point at which your safety measures start having negative effects. For me, for instance, that motorcycle helmet would be a non-starter because of its heat retention. I'm not even sure what the purpose of the canopy is. Nothing else in that picture seems terribly unreasonable.

zoltani

You are right, it's nerdy and a hassle, for me it is a practicality issue. If i am going to meet some friends for dinner or drinks I am not going to show up in my full reflective suit, go to the bathroom, change my clothes, and join them. I'm also not going to sit there blinding other patrons of the establishment.
This idea really turns a lot of people away from cycling in general. People will not do it if it seems like a hassle. I realize i am in the "commuting" forum, but surely some of you ride your bike everywhere?

I really don't feel like looking up statistics on bike accidents involving cyclists wearing hi-viz vs. not, but I'll bet you there are other issues going on, such as not obeying traffic laws, that come into play way more often then just the visibility factor.

zoltani

Not to mention the fact that you can't really see anything wearing such a ridiculous thing on your head while biking.

Andy_K 

I can agree with everything in this post!

I definitely select my cycling attire at least in part based on other things I'm doing when not on the bike. Sometimes the ride makes a wardrobe change reasonable. Sometimes it doesn't.

tjspiel

At some point I think we need to let people make their own decisions and not wring our hands over what message they might be getting from other cyclists.

Most people know how to dress themselves. If it's going to rain, some might wear a rain coat or bring an umbrella, other's won't. People choose their own cars and no one much cares. Yet for some reason in this forum, some of us feel the need to say what sort of bike people should buy and what clothes they should or should not wear while riding it.

If I'm going somewhere after work, that may influence what I choose to wear on a particular day. Usually it means that I will wear my cycling shorts to work, but leave my work clothes on for the journey to wherever happy hour is. I may or may not change for the ride home depending on the distance.

In cooler weather I have a jacket that I wear which has reflective stripes. I have no problem wearing it to a bar or to a restaurant unless it's a formal place. If someone thinks I'm nerdy so be it. What I don't do is walk around telling other cyclists that they should all dress like I do.

My advice is very simple. YOU decide what is worth the hassle and what isn't. That will vary from person to person and trip to trip.

The dude with the motorcycle helmet and rain thingy is an outlier. There are plenty of other examples in the cycling community for people to emulate. Some with cycling gear, some without.

zoltani

I agree with what you are saying.


Unfortunately it was this rider that the newspaper chose to focus on, which instills fear of cycling in non-cyclists. This is often the case...
All i am saying is that having people like grant say that you don't have to do that to just ride your bike is a good thing, and it is funny how people jump all over it on this forum.

tjspiel

I think if all he said was: "For many or even most people, regular clothes work just fine for riding to work.", this would have been a much shorter thread.

Unfortunately, he takes it a bit further. For example, referring to a chamois as a diaper isn't going to exactly endear him to those who find a chamois beneficial.

Steely Dan

for like the 1,000th time now, no one on this forum jumped on grant for suggesting that there might be other ways of doing things (an extremely reasonable POV).

rather, people on this forum, myself included, jumped on grant for saying that commuting in cycling clothing is ridiculous and that there isn't any room for debate on that subject (a jack-ass POV).