And yet the existence of the very quote which you quote disproves your assertion.

I'm intelligent enough to have used the word "feel". While hiviz and Xmas lights increase safety when cycling on the shoulder of a high-speed road at night, most serious accidents in my urban area have little to do with poor visibility and everything to do with poor choices. A safety vest is not going to protect you from a right hook or a @#$%-faced drunk. I also absolutely reject the premise that cycling for transportation is unsafe.

IMO, it is a bad thing. I see the safety-nanny high viz meme as stockholm syndrome light. It perpetuates the idea that cyclists are victims and "others".

This thread is not about night visibility. And there is very little credible evidence that lights or hiviz decrease risk during the day.

oh come on now, don't you see all the cops and construction workers wearing hi viz? just yesterday I saw a cop and a worker standing behind a steam roller and I thought to myself good thing they are wearing hi-viz. of course standing behind the steam roller wasn't too bright but then - that's who's out there working ... and cycling ...

even in the usa, cycling in an urban environment is a very safe activity. imo, the obsession of many cyclists with hiviz, lights, and helmets stems more from fear-mongering than true risk. pedestrians are often at far higher risk of being injured or killed and yet helments, yellow jackets, safety vests and flashing lights are not common ped fashion accessories.

https://www.transalt.org/files/resour...hapter17b.html

The quote you reference is talking about pedestrian safety, not cyclist safety.

Yowzer, would you rather blend in with the background? I find it useful. When I'm driving in my car, the brightly clothed bicyclists are seen first by me. YRMV.

sounds like we should start gearing up the pedestrians!

my point was that pedestrians are at greater risk than cyclists.
see also:
https://www.transalt.org/files/resour...7/table17.html

Oh, I did that and jinked left but the line of sight into the side street wasn't very good so I didn't get much warning.

This vest comes down low in the back, which makes it better than a runner's vest.

I was going to get a white CatEye Rapid 3 for the front because of the good results I have had since I started with a Rapid 5 on the rear. I decided to get one of the $22 CREE headlights off of Amazon because in addition to just flashing it would be useful when running late getting home with the short days we're into.

I'm glad I did. I've used it for three days now, during daylight on flash mode, and have been impressed by it's effectiveness at cross streets, driveways and in parking lights. I was over 1/4 mile downhill away from the worst intersection around here. It was almost dark and some guy in a pick-up sat and waited as I came at a whopping 10mph in headlight mode. He had time to go and come back before I got to the intersection. I can imagine his thoughts as I finally went by..............."Crap, it's just some bastard on a bicycle!!"

I rode around the other night to try it as a headlight and it was great, but that's another topic.

I generally walk with a hi vis vest if I'm walking late at night...

Experiences just like you had with the pick-up truck are what convinced me that running blinky's in the daylight do, in fact, help you to be noticed.

The ones that sit for very long time crack me up. Are they that poor a judge of speed/distance or do they think its a UFO coming down the street?!

Agree with these suggestions.
I'm not consistent with the lights. I sometimes run a Cygolite Hotshot blinkie and will run a headlight on strobe in low light.
I always wear hiVis attire.
Lane positioning is absolutely vital. Always consider sightlines and blind spots when deciding where to ride. Control the lane approaching and crossing intersections.

I have some civilian versions-no printing-of the older reflective yellow and blaze orange mesh vests used by police, crossing guards, etc.In cooler weather a blaze orange fleece vest, shirt or jacket depending on the temperature.

Yes!! Drivers in cars get used to estimating the distance of other cars. Looking at another vehicle that's not a car, all their car-based habits can throw them for a loop. Generally it works against us bicyclists as we are closer than we appear -- we look smaller (i.e. less wide than a car) than expected which gets interpreted as further away. I don't think that drivers are any better at estimating the distance of a bicyclist with hi-viz clothes or a blinky, they're just more likely to see them as they pull out in front of them while still processing the "so what?". At other times, the unexpected scene causes confusion and wonder which, fortunately, some patient drivers see as a call to wait rather than a window to blast out into traffic. Bless them.

The statistics that are being tossed around so far are largely useless to me. I think of risk as a probability / rate sort of thing. The numbers I saw only speak to numbers of occurrence. I need a denominator.

When I'm driving, I do a lot of pondering about what makes me see bikes and motorcycles, and particularly what makes me react to them or otherwise get an accurate picture of what is going on. Everybody has their own anecdotes and feelings. My net:

For daytime:
-- lane positioning and a blinky white front light are very important
-- bright colors are a big plus, though I'm not married to hi-viz
-- red tail blinky doesn't hurt, but is the least significant to me

For nighttime:
-- I can't stand a front white blinky, but a good steady white light matters lots. Helmet lights in particular are very noticeable.
-- a good red blinking rear (e.g Dinotte), or a couple of good lower end ones (e.g. Superflash) is a must. I barely see lots of riders with single, small lights that are dim because they're either junk or low on batteries.
-- lane positioning matters less because the good lights take over, but it still counts
-- reflective takes over bright in value in clothing. There are some reflective black things things that are better at night than they are in the day.

On my motorcycle, I've added a blinky of sorts - a headlight modulator that flashes my hibeams during daylight. I use it when I'm hitting a lot of cross traffic. I can see it makes a big difference and think it helps get over the closer-than-appear issue as well the basic see-ability, though I know as a driver it is pretty annoying so I don't run with it much when there isn't lots going on traffic-wise. When the high beams are off, my foglights are usually on and they just make enough of a hi-lo weird profile (night or day) that I think it makes folks look twice and be more likely to process both my presence and the distance/so-what bit. I think the bicycle parallel of that is the helmet+handlebar light combo.

Holy crap that's a dorky vest. Nobody with any fashion sense will wear that.

Y'know, if you folks wore something respectable and sensible, more people might take up cycling as a form of transportation, cause every time when people see a total fred with helmet light, hi viz vest, and ankle band, they're turned off and go, "I ain't doing that".

Sure it looks dorky, but I can take it off and look fine. You, however, will remain a cad, no matter what you wear.

Maybe we should have six foot long horizontal rods attached to our bikes so that we can mount two headlights and taillights spaced out as far as they are on cars.

HOLY CRAP a post from you that I can agree with!

I personally see cycling as a very safe activity, if performed in a safe and predictable manner. For me, wearing a helmet while out in traffic, wearing high-vis stuff, and using bright flashing lights is just a part of being safe.

I personally do not judge anyone who doesn't wear a helmet. I don't always wear one myself. But for any long distance or any time I'm out among traffic I prefer to wear one as a personal choice.

In my opinion, being visible is just a part of being safe. Lights, high-vis and reflective stuff are big parts of that. Riding a bike with dark clothing, and no lights or reflectors at night is a very UNSAFE way to ride. Sure you can have all the situational awareness you want, but you can't predict or see EVERYTHING coming. Eventually something WILL take you by surprise where it probably wouldn't have happened if you had taken more steps to be more visible.

Try beating these for daytime visibility!



Because one just can't go against instincts!

This thread is about daylight visibility, not helmet use or riding at night without lighting. If you want to wear hiviz and use lighting during the day that is your prerogative. Just don't kid yourself that it makes you safer than I.

I should note that I use a helmet and lighting when appropriate. Moreover, my black clothing/bags are just as visible as any safety nanny's dayglo vest at night.

For example, my US-made black bag:

My US-made black bag at night:

People wear what they want when they ride. People who don't ride don't blame it on what they would have to wear. That said, I've seen dorkier vests than that one. It's pretty minimalist and sleek. I'd wear one, but my Gore jacket has way more of that oh so visible neon green/yellow thing going on and keeps me warm besides.

H

The thread maybe about daytime visibility but you continue to mix in nightime visibilty. So, let's go there. That photo... are you really that much in denial that you think some reflective high-lights on a messenger bag can out perform something like a refliective bike jacket or even the vest pictured above? To say nothing of rear flashers... I mean... even if you live car free you must occasionally get a ride in one. At night. Tell the truth, sometimes you see a bike and the only way you knew a bike was there was because you saw its blinkie. Totally invisible otherwise. But because the rider has a blinkie you know he is there. Now what you do with that knowledge depends on you. No blinkie is going to save you from someone who has a ______ for cyclists and he's in the mood to make your day. But a driver who is a reasonable human being, who maybe rides him/herself. Isn't that someone you'd want to give that information to? I ride like I'm invisible but IF I get nailed and I don't have any hi-viz or required lighting the inattentive, distracted, or criminally negligent driver is going to WALK AWAY from what is left of my life scot free and I might end up having to pay him/her damages as a result. Having some night gear just strengthens your position. This is not an argument you can win. Run ninja if you want. Just don't try to convince rational people that you are just as safe as they are. You are not. You may never have to find that out the hard way. Yay. God does indeed take care of fools and babies. Or does He... maybe you've just been lucky. Rejoice and don't get cocky. Its not nice to take one's Guardian Angel for granted.

H

BTW more visible is more visible. Hi-viz is more visible than not, day or night. It just is. There is no argument. Cars are pretty visible yes? But cars with their headlights on in the daytime are still more visible would you agree. So much so that many sections of roadway request that you run your headlights during the day. Some car models do it for you its that useful a thing to do! It is worth the cost of having to buy headlight bulbs more often. Some people don't think so. They are wrong. Hi-viz are your bicycles headlights. Running your hi-viz during the day makes you safer than not. How much safer? Who knows that takes more analysis than the question needs. Common sense says it is a change in the 'safer' direction. No batteries or bulbs to burn out to wear a hi-viz jacket or vest. I don't run my flashers in the daytime but I do wear my hi-viz. I'm not a freak about it in the daytime nor do I wear my helmet for trips under a couple miles. But my commute and longer trips. Helmet and hi-viz. Bad weather, helmet and hi-viz. I ask again, what is the harm in it?

I specifically stated above that I use lighting at night. Moreover, it's interesting that you assume that my black cycling clothing does not have reflective features. The ninja comment is amusing too. Many cyclists have real issues with projection of their own fears on other cyclists.

I have no problem with hiviz clothing per se. Nevertheless, I bristle at the idea that those who do not wear hiviz (in the context of a typical urban commute) are taking an inordinate risk. IMO, hi viz or daylight lighting slightly decreases an already very low risk.