I am actually not insulted, but I don't see facts to indicate the US is a minor market. The facts I see I would interpret the opposite way.

The US is different in many ways, some I like, some I don't. I actually wish the US market would embrace dynamo lighting and more efficient/practical cars (its better then it was but has a long way to go). I don't know why your jumping on my one statement. I was simply pointing out that the US market is significant enough that auto manufactures make a lot of vehicles specific for the US market. If it was a minor market there would be less cars tailored specifically for it. Clearly there are big numbers so manufactures want to be in the US market.

I thought I was discussing like an adult. I am questioning a statement you made, which really wasn't even relevant to bike lighting, not a judge of character like you did, assuming I was insulted by your statement.

subtract VAT (-19%)

I always judge character quickly.

Those that stay (i.e. you) are worth talking to, the others ... meh.

I have been called dominant and aggressive by colleagues is that week ... at an elite UK and quite contending world university. I push people hard, or so I'm told

The US market is unique (to say the least).

Wow, that's some machine. You have a dynamo/drum brake front hub. What rear hub is that? I have the same headlight on my Bianchi Volpe. The Sanyo dynamo hub powers it.

I asked my LBS why they don't sell dynamo lights. The owner said the cost of adding them is pretty high, so not many customers want them badly enough to have them added.

The real way to bring them into the US market is to sell bikes equipped with them. Those bikes will be higher priced than bikes without lights, but the difference will be less than the cost of adding dynamo lights. The problem is that people don't understand the value ... YET.

There are changes afoot. The fraction of cyclists I see with lights is rising sharply. The fraction of cyclists using GOOD lights is also rising. Some of them have obviously spent money on the lights, so the willingness to do this is headed in the right direction. Remember, it was zero recently.

When I talk to non-bike-nuts about bikes, they mention that the bike prices they see lately are outrageous. As you know, a minimally useful bike that will be reliable is $500. To them, that's outrageous for a street bike that can do errands, etc. The reason they think it's high is that they lose track of inflation. They may remember paying $200 for a bike 30 years ago. Right, but a loaf of bread was $0.75 then, and it's $4.00 now. The bike hasn't risen faster than inflation, but they lose sight of that. If the Raleigh Sports were still being made now, it would cost $1,000. That was a seriously well build machine, with every nut and bolt made of heavy, high quality steel. Anyone who bought a Sports back in the day thinks of it as a $50 bike, because it was 50 years ago. But how long did it take to earn $50?

The willingness to pay a fully equipped commuter bike with fenders, racks, lights, and whatever will come. It's coming already. I see the signs.

The immigrant delivery bike riders used to ride department store bikes. They now ride serious bikes with battery lights. They own their own bikes, which means they have discovered that investing in a good bike saves money and keeps them on the streets reliably. There are all kinds of bike commuters now, also not bike nuts like you and I are.

The US is a tiny market for some types of bikes and bike accessories. That is changing and will change. Eventually, we might be a large market. I don't blame the makers for not pushing their dynamos and lights.

And whether or not the Philips light comes back, it doesn't matter. There are other makers, such as B&M (Germany) and Dosun (Taiwan). The B&M has all the advantages of the Philips. The Dosun doesn't seem as sophisticated, but it mounts well and seems very sturdy, perhaps sturdier than the B&M and Philips. I have one of each of these three brands.

Tail lights matter less. Some battery powered tail lights are excellent. They need less power, so keeping charged or fresh batteries in them is easy. Not so for good headlights.

I have gotten similar responses when I asked about dynamo lights, that or they look at me funny and point me to a battery light. Most people in the US don't want to replace wheels to get something they consider an accessory for their bike. The wheels most bike shops I have been to here sell are "upgrades" for "lighter" and "faster" wheels. Adding a potentially heavier wheel to power a light is not on most people minds here.

I have only seen a handful of fully equipped bikes for sale in the US, fenders, racks, lights, etc. One of them from REI ironically comes with a battery light. I really hope things are changing. I would love to go in and buy a reasonably priced city bike with dynamo lights, fenders, etc...without having to pay for other premium features like a carbon belt drive that some of these types of bikes in the US have.

I will agree that I see more cyclists with lights, and more of them with good lights. Even during the day I see more lights on bikes. That said I still think we are a long time from people considering that lights should just come with their bike, not be an add on accessory.

Yes, the US market is very unique.

To bring the discussion back to bike lights (but still relevant to autos), the American market, driven by marketing, is obsessed with more and/or bigger is better. Battery lights are marketed with higher and higher numbers of lumens - 500, 700, 1000, 1500, etc. There is little marketing about quality optics, beam patterns, or even battery life. I am not at all an expert on dynamo lights, but what I have seen has more been marketed by Lux. I would also guess that many of the high quality dynamo lights don't have the crazy lumen numbers that are becoming so popular in the US, even if with quality design they light the road as well if not better. So to tell a TYPICAL US consumer, you can spend $100 on this 800 lumen light, or $100 for this dynamo light putting out some lower number of lumens, plus $150 more for a new wheel with a dynamo, they will probably stop listening and buy the battery light. Only a small percentage of US consumers will think about advantages that a dynamo light might offer to consider making the investment.

If the light is part of the bike it might be an easier sell, but such fully equipped bikes as the trekking bikes in Germany are not as common in the US.

Auto industry has similar marketing in the US, where big vehicles with lots of horsepower are marketed in a very effective way to most people in the US, making smaller and more economical cars seem "cheap" and therefor less desirable, even thought they would be very practical for many people. This has been slowly changing with more premium compact cars, but still a minority case.

so yeah I did get a dynamo set up. Herrmans head and tail light, shimano alfine hub. I love it.

WestMass, nice to see your project completed. Glad you're happy with your setup!

I agree. Dynamo lighting systems are usually overkill for day-time toys. Although, the age of electronic toys and the desire to keep goodies like smartphones and GPS units charged has increased the attractiveness of dynamo systems for some recreational riders (brevet riders and tourers come to mind).

This is true, also. But the "non-bike-nuts" who ride for utility's sake might be more willing to go the dynamo route if it didn't take such an effort. Even with a low-cost dynamo, having to pay to have a custom wheel built pretty much keeps most non-bike people from seriously considering it as an option. Just the cost of the wheel-building service and spokes can get most folks a battery light that will serve their purposes.

While the "bigger is better" marketing is certainly true, the numbers can be misleading. The big 1500 number drops down fairly fast when converting to actual lux output, just as the much smaller lux numbers increase dramatically when converting to lumens. Many consumers don't look this far, though.

Lumens to lux (lx) conversion calculator

Lux to lumens (lm) conversion calculator

German consumers do.

Great links! I'm trying to figure out what is reasonable to put into the "enter surface area" or "enter spherical radius" area. This is the surface area I need illuminated to ride safely, right? Any suggestions for someone who rides at about 12 mph through decently lit city streets?

Your comment about non-bike nuts who think the prices on fully equipped bicycles are crazy could have been a description of me a year or two ago. It took me a while to wrap my mind around what it would cost to get exactly what I wanted and to make decisions about where I was and was not willing to compromise. So this "willingness to pay" came to me slowly. What helped me wrap my mind around the price I finally paid was looking at less well equipped bikes and calculating what it would cost to add after-market improvements to brakes, lights, gearing, saddle, etc. to make the bike what I wanted. In every case, it came to within $100 or so of what I ended up paying for a bike that is exactly what I want (or will be -- I hope -- if it ever arrives).

Yes. And manufacturers, too. I love my German made bicycle products.

We're having a bike headlight smackdown on Wednesday night in Manhattan. 7:30pm at 23rd St and 1st Ave. All are welcome. So far, we have zacster, 1nterceptor, Alice and me.


LINK

I've read that the new bottle dynamos are efficienter than the old ones. I put an ancient Miller bottle dynamo on the bike I loaned Alice. It is noisy, and the drag is perceptible, but the weight isn't perceptible when the dynamo is not engaged. The drag is not onerous, i.e. not like riding into a stiff headwind.

a bottle dynamo is a reasonably priced way to get dynamo lighting. It could be a gateway drug into hub dynamos for some people. Bike shops could -- and maybe should -- stock machine built dynamo wheels. They cost a heck of a lot less than building a wheel.

Giant Doofus, welcome to the fold. It's nice to have a convert in the flock.

I just hope the weather holds up. It isn't looking so great in the forecast.

The German specifies Lux over an area at a certain distance, which is probably why it's advertised that way

Bad weather makes it a better test. Wear rain (or snow) gear. If it does snow, we know it will be our last rollick in the snow of the year.

It'll be snowing until June because you said that.

That's what I'm hoping for. OK, now you have to wait until Wednesday to kill me.

Touring and charging gadgets as well as powering lights is a great use case for dynamo, but still somewhat of a niche in the US bike market.

I agree on the effort part. I have become very interested in a dynamo for my new bike, but I don't really know where to start and my LBS was not very helpful on this front. Started doing a lot of research on dynamos and lights, but then I also need to know something about wheels and honestly I have only used the wheels that came with by bikes.

Yes - the German made bicycle parts (and accesories/clothes/etc) I have had have all be very nice.

German consumers are very different then your typical US consumer. Coming from a German family and having many german friends I know this well.

I have actually thought about getting a trekking bike in Germany when I am there next time, but its probably less effort to order online these days if I can find a retailer that will ship it.

You could start your own thread for all of your questions and to document your progress, or we could talk about it all here.

First, you need to decide between sidewall or hub dynamo. Sidewalls are lighter and quick to install. They're also cheaper. The drag, when in use, is perceptible but not as bad as brake pads rubbing on your rim. Hub dynamos are lighter, and the drag is either barely perceptible or imperceptible, depending on whom you talk to. I can't perceive mine. I perceive a vibration, but that's not drag, to me. Drag is higher when lights are on, but in theory, you can never completely eliminate the drag, even when lights are off. I suspect it's not significant, but there's an argument to be had.

Labor to build a wheel is often about $50. Spokes are expensive if you're buying them, and so are rims, so you're better off finding a pre-built wheel, unless you want the very highest quality. You can save the money for labor and build it yourself, and we can walk you through the process. We've helped many people build their own wheels here. I build my own wheels, but I don't delude myself into thinking I'm saving money. I do it because it's satisfying to choose the components and build the wheel.

There are lots of lights available but not many vendors in the US. You can read Peter White's pages on lighting, where he sells a good variety of very good stuff at reasonable prices. It's a very wordy site, and I didn't have patience for it for a while. I've bought two or three lights from https://xxcycle.com which is a company in France. Prices are excellent, and shipping rates are reasonable, though it takes a couple of weeks to receive your stuff. The web site's English translations aren't the best, but they're good enough for me, and I speak a little French, so that helps.

Busch and Muller (aka B&M) has one or more headlights that offer USB charging. They're expensive, but you could argue that they're worth it because they do the job so well.

You may want to read the story of the dynamo setup on my Bianchi Volpe. It's nothing fancy, but it sure works well for me. Total cost was about $160, including bits and bobs.

Thanks for the detailed reply. The idea to go to a Dynamo has been brewing in my head for a while on how to customize my new bike as my ultimate commuting and touring bike. I am thinking of doing this for my birthday and have been trying to learn more about it.

I may start a thread on this specifically as I get ready to do more research and actually move forward with this project. First I have some more pressing matters to deal with.

I don't think I want to build the wheel myself...while I would like to learn but I am not sure if I trust myself. I hope to find a reputable shop to build it for me. I definitely want to do with a hub dynamo, not bottle, get a good one, build a good wheel, etc. I don't expect it to be cheap but hope to keep it reasonable.

I have spent time on Peter White's site, but its a lot to digest and hard to tell sometimes what information is up to date and what isn't.

Thanks for sharing your story on your blog.