Surly is my favourite brand. Surlys frames are unique, different, I think they are the most practical and versatile frames ever produced, everything out there is crap compared to Surly. Very few manufacturers out there make bikes with rear facing drop outs( track ends) and horizontal drops. Very easy to set them up SS, FG or geared, track ends and horizontal drop outs are simple and effective. Their frames have more clearance for big tires then any other frame out there. I have a Surly 1x1 and the No.1 selling point for me was rear track-ends and huge tire clearance.

I looked at a Surly Cross Check SS earlier this spring, but found a Trek SSFG with horizontal dropouts that I liked better... $600 vs $900 too.

Why would you want track ends on a commute bike?

Because I commute on FG or SS bikes, I don't own any multi geared bikes... Horizontal drop outs are OK but I just prefer rear track-ends with chain tugs.

I don't know why, but I like track ends.

When I looked at the Cross Check about 3 years ago, local bike shops were selling it around here at list, I think was $1,150 or thereabouts. There wasn't a lot comparable from the major manufacturers due to the Cross Check's steel frame, but alloy frames with similar component specs were going for at least that. I think the steel-framed Trek 520 was going for that price or more, which is a good standard for comparison. So I don't think it was overpriced relative to the competition then. It's only $50 more now.

My Fantom CXX was $800, but I'm into it for more than $1,100 given accessories, upgraded saddle and tires, and so forth. It's my primary commuter bike. I have a 1990s steel mountain bike much like yours, but I only use it with studded tires in the winter. Why? Because the CXX is just a far better bike. I prefer the way it rides by far, it shifts better, and I have a very high level of confidence that everything will work right every ride. Most of all, commuting has been the vast majority of my bike mileage for a number of years, and I want to ride the bike I enjoy the most for those miles.

I live in a city with a substantial amount of crime, and I ride through sketchy neighborhoods during my commute. I park my bike inside at work, so that's not an issue. I guess someone could jump me for my bike somewhere on the way. It would hurt more to lose my CXX than the old mountain bike. However, losing the mountain bike would be a substantial hit as well, considering that it would have far higher replacement value than its current actual value. That's the risk we all take when we get on our bikes and ride somewhere.

the Trek 520 starts at almost $1500, too.

Seems like and all-rounder from what my colleagues in New England say.

Personally, I'm not a fan of all-rounders as they don't excel in any one area and would rather have one tool for each job. That's why I keep bikes stashed where I live that are suitable for their purpose.

I usually agree with you but this is a severe stretch of the truth. I saw them everywhere in Germany (usually at the discount sporting goods places ... think German-version of REI). They didn't seem as well-built or well-option as CUBE or STEVENS bikes for the same money.

https://cube.eu/

Stevens Bikes 2015 | Home

Around here Surlys aren't cheap. You not going to find them at a discount store. One of my local bike shops is selling Surly Fat Bikes for $2400-2700 dollars. When I bought my Surly 1x1 frame many years ago I paid $550 dollars for just the frame alone. A fully built crosscheck will run you about $1600 or more depending on the components.

I would say that a discount bike is anything less than €1000. I'd consider REI a discount store in terms out outdoor goods stores.

I also don't think that $550 is justified for a frame, when one can get something from TourTerrain for the same price.

https://www.en.tout-terrain.de/

price list: https://www.en.tout-terrain.de/filead...h_2015_web.pdf

They certainly have a more "European" aesthetic. Is that what makes them better? What models from these companies are you comparing to the Surly offerings? Let's see some side by side comparisons, not just links to websites, please.

You can do the work, if you want.

I'm just voicing my opinion that I find the Surly CC not great value for money as most people state here.

However, I understand that the EU market is much more diverse with it's product offering, especially with regards to cycling equipment.

I'm not going to bother doing the work, of all those bikes, maybe one piqued my interest. Not worth the effort. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you.

LOL.

Sorry to hear that. It sounds like your loss ... I'll be out riding!

k.

I picked up my frame for $400.00 a few years ago and changed over parts from an existing bike. Makes a great solid commuter. Fits racks and fenders with wide tires. I can also hit some singletrack with it on the way home. The versatility is key for me. I also own a 1x1 and a Karate Monkey. A no nonsense bike that works well.

Just ignore him, he is constantly dicking up threads with irrelevant comments on how much better he thinks everything is in Europe.

Yup, I'm beginning to notice that

Lol ... those bikes are far superior to the Surly CC in the same price range.

Sorry, if you don't want to hear that.

How are they superior? Specifically?

I like and admire Europe, and I like the information and perspective he brings here. But it has gotten to the point where I feel the same, where he seems to be asserting some sort of superiority because he chose to live in Europe. Boring.

For example, one is hand-welded in Germany, while the other is machine-welded in Taiwan.

Regardless of the keeping locals employed and keeping the money where it should stay arguments, I'd trust a hand-welded frame from southern Germany than a machine processed frame.

In addition, if the frames are made in house, then a certain amount of new technology can be implemented directly into the manufacturing process with minimal lead and testing/refinement periods.

One example is making frames to test these in house:

PINION / P1.18 / DRIVE TECHNOLOGY

The turn around time is much longer if the welding is done by a machine halfway around the planet.

It also reduces the cost and shortens the development cycles.

For a precise example, why doesn't the Surly CC have the handlebar rotation stop welded to the frame? It just seems like an oversight to me because the extra material would literally cost 2 USD at most.

Ex Bmx-er here. Track ends are the only 'dropouts' that have ever made sense to me. Sig'd.

As a Steamroller owner who probably paid too much ($450) for his used Surly, I've thought about it a lot and after nearly 1000 miles on it, I can't say I'd do it differently given the chance. Yes, some of Surly's color choices are (very) questionable (brownish purple? wtf?) but the bike feels sturdy and responsive. A lot of people say Surly just makes steel bikes with superb marketing but they all seem to really thoughtfully executed for their intended purposes. I especially like that a couple of their frames ship with modular dropouts, which I think is pretty cool.

That's a list of preferences. How does it speak to quality?

I think that if you look at the OP it's a list of preferences. I also mentioned that they are "far superior", which I think are because my shopping preferences include keeping the money in house and reduced greenhouse emissions from shipping.

Where did I stress quality, you seem to be hung up on enhanced quality equating with a better overall purchase, or am I mistaken?