Polar vortex
#76
Senior Member
Vermont gets there too.
J.
#77
Senior Member
Well, we've nearly managed to completely drain the Aral Sea which was once the 4th largest lake in the world. We've created a huge dead zone (the size of Connecticut) where the Mississippi empties into the Gulf of Mexico. And if you take a look around you during your day today, you probably will not see anything that hasn't been shaped or touched in some way by humankind except for the stars in the sky. Even the wilderness areas in our country are "managed" and exist only because we allow them to.
We've been so disruptive to the environment for so long, we don't even notice it anymore.
We've been so disruptive to the environment for so long, we don't even notice it anymore.
And anyway, the topic was the climate, not the oceans, lakes and wilderness areas.
#78
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 8,101
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
13 Posts
You stated the idea that our actions could alter climate was preposterous. My point was to take a look at the very visible impacts we've already had on the environment and maybe it wouldn't be so hard to believe we've made substantial impacts that are less visible.
Last edited by tjspiel; 11-10-14 at 11:08 AM.
#79
incazzare.
Wow. A lot of people think they know better than 97% of scientists. We really need better public education in this country.
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
#81
Senior Member
#82
incazzare.
Not really, no. Perhaps long, long before "scientist" was a word, a majority of "learned men" thought so, but it has been known by the majority of said "learned men" since around the 3rd century BCE. Some unlearned people didn't understand the concept until much more recently, I suppose. It's probably a lot more like climate change than we'd suspect, in that way.
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 8,101
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
13 Posts
Back to the original question:
Yes I did ride this morning but this afternoon is going to be a game time decision. I left for work later than usual because I had to drop my daughter off at school and even by that time the trails/roads were slushy and icy. It's supposed to keep snowing into tomorrow. As for the duration of the vortex I expect to ride on most days barring another large snow event.
I will confess to being caught a little flat footed. I did a cursory cleanup of my winter bike last spring but since it was my first year using ATF inside my Alfine, I wanted to pull the hub apart to make sure all was OK before riding on it anymore. So the bike sat all summer and there was quite a bit of work to be done to get it ready in time for this morning. I did manage, but I'm a little sad that I didn't get a few weeks of riding on it before the studs went on. Plus I still have some brake work to do.
Looking at the forecast for the next 10 days, it looks like winter is here to stay. By the time the effects of the vortex move off, it will be about the time I'd normally start riding the winter bike anyway.
Yes I did ride this morning but this afternoon is going to be a game time decision. I left for work later than usual because I had to drop my daughter off at school and even by that time the trails/roads were slushy and icy. It's supposed to keep snowing into tomorrow. As for the duration of the vortex I expect to ride on most days barring another large snow event.
I will confess to being caught a little flat footed. I did a cursory cleanup of my winter bike last spring but since it was my first year using ATF inside my Alfine, I wanted to pull the hub apart to make sure all was OK before riding on it anymore. So the bike sat all summer and there was quite a bit of work to be done to get it ready in time for this morning. I did manage, but I'm a little sad that I didn't get a few weeks of riding on it before the studs went on. Plus I still have some brake work to do.
Looking at the forecast for the next 10 days, it looks like winter is here to stay. By the time the effects of the vortex move off, it will be about the time I'd normally start riding the winter bike anyway.
#84
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
Yes, the climate is changing, its always been changing.
Its the the conjecture about how our actions affect those changes, and its consequences that are in question, not that there's change.
Its the the conjecture about how our actions affect those changes, and its consequences that are in question, not that there's change.
#85
contiuniously variable
Look, I can go on and on forever with facts and just have a grand old time doing it, but if you choose to ignore the facts, then i can't help you. It sucks what is going on, it's costing human lives every day. If you think we are better off lubricating our own slide into oblivion with the lives of those lost from a storm or wildfire that may not have been otherwise, then not only can i not help you, you should feel ashamed.
WATCH: Marshallese poet Kathy Jetnil-Kijiner speaking at the Climate Summit - UN Climate Summit 2014
Things will change regardless of your fact refusing beliefs, and you will benefit from those changes, as will your children and their children. I will fight this fight all day and all night long, even if you think me a fool for doing so. I ask myself this often, and perhaps you might want to start: what do YOU care about? Why? Will it make a difference to improve something? Am i being the change i want to see happen in the world?
- Andy
#86
incazzare.
Andy,
They will change their minds soon enough. Even now you see Fox and the GOP starting to soften their stances. Previously it was a liberal conspiracy, now it's "I'm not a scientist." Pretty soon it will be recognized, and the propaganda will change, easing the doubters into it, and people like the ones you're talking to in this thread will forget they ever denied that climate change was real. Why the delay on the right wing? I don't know. Maybe the existing power companies wanted time to develop green tech? Wish I knew.
They will change their minds soon enough. Even now you see Fox and the GOP starting to soften their stances. Previously it was a liberal conspiracy, now it's "I'm not a scientist." Pretty soon it will be recognized, and the propaganda will change, easing the doubters into it, and people like the ones you're talking to in this thread will forget they ever denied that climate change was real. Why the delay on the right wing? I don't know. Maybe the existing power companies wanted time to develop green tech? Wish I knew.
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
#87
Senior Member
#88
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
They are only "in question" to the fossil fuel, petro-distillates & automobile industry, because they depend on doubt to avoid obsolescence & big change. Literally, its not a debate, its not a mystery, its not a puzzle. We are causing warming due to carbon dioxide & methane emissions. It's scientific fact. You can -believe- whatever you want to, but belief is not fact.
Look, I can go on and on forever with facts and just have a grand old time doing it, but if you choose to ignore the facts, then i can't help you. It sucks what is going on, it's costing human lives every day. If you think we are better off lubricating our own slide into oblivion with the lives of those lost from a storm or wildfire that may not have been otherwise, then not only can i not help you, you should feel ashamed.
WATCH: Marshallese poet Kathy Jetnil-Kijiner speaking at the Climate Summit - UN Climate Summit 2014
Things will change regardless of your fact refusing beliefs, and you will benefit from those changes, as will your children and their children. I will fight this fight all day and all night long, even if you think me a fool for doing so. I ask myself this often, and perhaps you might want to start: what do YOU care about? Why? Will it make a difference to improve something? Am i being the change i want to see happen in the world?
- Andy
Look, I can go on and on forever with facts and just have a grand old time doing it, but if you choose to ignore the facts, then i can't help you. It sucks what is going on, it's costing human lives every day. If you think we are better off lubricating our own slide into oblivion with the lives of those lost from a storm or wildfire that may not have been otherwise, then not only can i not help you, you should feel ashamed.
WATCH: Marshallese poet Kathy Jetnil-Kijiner speaking at the Climate Summit - UN Climate Summit 2014
Things will change regardless of your fact refusing beliefs, and you will benefit from those changes, as will your children and their children. I will fight this fight all day and all night long, even if you think me a fool for doing so. I ask myself this often, and perhaps you might want to start: what do YOU care about? Why? Will it make a difference to improve something? Am i being the change i want to see happen in the world?
- Andy
#89
Dart Board
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Happy Valley Oregon
Posts: 1,785
Bikes: 13 Super Six EVO Red, 2005 Six13, 2015 CAADX
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Supposed to dip doen into the high 20's for one day here. I will ride in it because it will be dry. Cold yes but then I layer like a slayer...
V
V
#90
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Terrified to live a full life, no, terrified to think about not having things like reliable running water.... yes.
Ah, but millions of years of records and proven connection between carbon gas in the atmosphere and atmospheric temperature is not at all conjecture. In fact, carbon dioxide being a known "greenhouse" gas for many, any years plus more than has ever been in the atmosphere ever at one time since humans have been here = warming. It's really not rocket science.
- ANdy
Ah, but millions of years of records and proven connection between carbon gas in the atmosphere and atmospheric temperature is not at all conjecture. In fact, carbon dioxide being a known "greenhouse" gas for many, any years plus more than has ever been in the atmosphere ever at one time since humans have been here = warming. It's really not rocket science.
- ANdy
Amazing. Today's CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is a bit under 400 ppm. Which is about as low as it's EVER been - CO2 concentrations have been as high as 7,000 ppm in the past.
Here's another:
NB that temperatures have little to do with atmospheric CO2 concentration.
#91
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Also note that the average temperature of the planet today is something like 12C. The "average average" is probably about 20C or higher, with the most common average temperature about 25C.
In geological time frames, the Earth doesn't have polar icecaps.
In geological time frames, the Earth doesn't have polar icecaps.
#92
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,506
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7352 Post(s)
Liked 2,479 Times
in
1,439 Posts
Therefore, what? Scientists are full of more bunk than the average person? Maybe I don't get your point, but on the face of it, it's distrusting education and praising ignorance.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#95
Hooray for most things!
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Central Utah
Posts: 162
Bikes: Motobecane Fantom Cross Pro
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't ride my bike to save the world. I do it because I enjoy it.
If the world is a little healthier because of me - awesome!
If I'm not making an ounce of difference because global warming is a hoax - awesome!
Shut up and ride! That's the only thing we can agree on, so go keep the peace. Ride.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go idle my car for 20 minutes so that my neighbors don't think I'm a weirdo.
If the world is a little healthier because of me - awesome!
If I'm not making an ounce of difference because global warming is a hoax - awesome!
Shut up and ride! That's the only thing we can agree on, so go keep the peace. Ride.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go idle my car for 20 minutes so that my neighbors don't think I'm a weirdo.
#96
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
On 13 September 2011, though honored as a Fellow, Giaever resigned from the American Physical Society over its official position noting: "In the APS it is ok to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible?"
The warming numbers most commonly advanced are created by climate computer models built almost entirely by scientists who believe in catastrophic global warming. The rate of warming forecast by these models depends on many assumptions and engineering to replicate a complex world in tractable terms, such as how water vapor and clouds will react to the direct heat added by carbon dioxide or the rate of heat uptake, or absorption, by the oceans.
We might forgive these modelers if their forecasts had not been so consistently and spectacularly wrong. From the beginning of climate modeling in the 1980s, these forecasts have, on average, always overstated the degree to which the Earth is warming compared with what we see in the real climate.
For instance, in 1994 we published an article in the journal Nature showing that the actual global temperature trend was "one-quarter of the magnitude of climate model results." As the nearby graph shows, the disparity between the predicted temperature increases and real-world evidence has only grown in the past 20 years.
We might forgive these modelers if their forecasts had not been so consistently and spectacularly wrong. From the beginning of climate modeling in the 1980s, these forecasts have, on average, always overstated the degree to which the Earth is warming compared with what we see in the real climate.
For instance, in 1994 we published an article in the journal Nature showing that the actual global temperature trend was "one-quarter of the magnitude of climate model results." As the nearby graph shows, the disparity between the predicted temperature increases and real-world evidence has only grown in the past 20 years.
#97
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times
in
38 Posts
The local weather here in Minnesota has these predictions for the rest of the week:
Tues: 27 / 8
Wed: 25 / 13
Thur: 25 / 6
Friday: 23 / 6
Sat: 24 / 4
Sun: 18 / 4
Mon: 16 / 2
Tues: 17 / 6
Wed: 17 / 7
Apparently the average high / low here -
https://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?location=USMN0503
Is 43 / 27.
The record lows are all around 0 degrees - 3, -1, -4, 0, 0, 1, -2, -5, -4...
So basically they're predicting temps right around the record setting coldest possible. Sigh.
#98
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Renowned scientist Freeman Dyson:
I simply find that a lot of these claims that experts are making are absurd. Not that I know better, but I know a few things. My objections to the global warming propaganda are not so much over the technical facts, about which I do not know much, but it’s rather against the way those people behave and the kind of intolerance to criticism that a lot of them have.
#99
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 8,101
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
13 Posts
Indeed.
Amazing. Today's CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is a bit under 400 ppm. Which is about as low as it's EVER been - CO2 concentrations have been as high as 7,000 ppm in the past.
Here's another:
NB that temperatures have little to do with atmospheric CO2 concentration.
Amazing. Today's CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is a bit under 400 ppm. Which is about as low as it's EVER been - CO2 concentrations have been as high as 7,000 ppm in the past.
Here's another:
NB that temperatures have little to do with atmospheric CO2 concentration.
#100
Senior Member
No one can prove there is global warming, global cooling or climate change taking place right now. Furthermore, even if you could prove it, no one can prove that human activity is the cause of it. Even if you could prove human activity is the cause of climate change, no one can prove that anything meaningful can be done to change it. To conclude, yes, the "chicken little scientists" are more full of bunk than the average person.