Ah, glad to hear you're experiencing unseasonably warm temperatures at the moment!

Actually, it is a simple matter of the physical properties of the water molecule combined with the concept of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Water, when frozen, expands to a larger volume than its liquid form. Sufficient pressure, applied to frozen water, will reverse this process, causing it to contract and change back to liquid, locally. Hydrodynamic lubrication refers to the principle of solid objects sliding relative to each other, when separated by a liquid film, that provides an extremely low frictional force compared to the two objects being in direct mechanical contact.
The two above described phenomena are exactly the reason why ice skates, skis, toboggans, sleds and vehicle tires slide so easily on ice and snow.

Moisture is in the air... And if you giving black ice example only at intersections, you probably never went outside your city to see miles, and miles of black ice on freeways...
Ice on the roads can form from condensation from hot/warm tires rolling on a very cold road surface...

And now little fine print... I'm pretty sure cyccommute knows what he is talking about. You also have some interesting points... I just use common sense regarding this topic...nothing more, nothing less...

It's the black ice fairy.

Changing wheels is really no big deal for me. The biggest thing would be to switch the brakes out (v to drum on front & v to coaster on rear) since the front would be a dyno drum & rear would be 8 speed gear hub with internal coaster. I could in theory hook some kind of partial system up to the handlebar for the drum & simply hook the rest up during wheel swap. All doable, however Ive said to folks & thought to myself that the SE tripel would make a great snow bike since it all ready has the coaster igh and mounts for everything else. Basically I'm thinking it'd make a great foundation for a dual season bike. Rec rides in summer, utility rides in snow & ice season. If I get the studded tires I could simply swap those vs the whole wheel, lot quicker therefore easier to adapt to the conditions outside. Am I making any sense, or am I barking mad?

- Andy

And she is out to get us, because she's not one of the good faeries.

Correctamondo.

It's ice. Really easily defined.

In my opinion it definitely makes sense to just swap the tires twice a year between regular rubber and studded.

The only situation I think that keeping a spare wheel around for is if you're just to to swap the front wheel, your bike has rim brakes, and most likely no dynamo hub.

Otherwise swapping wheelsets - I mean I'd have to write a huge essay no one would read that would be based on opinion, but in my opinion there are to many factors against swapping a whole wheelset to make it worthwhile. If you need to swap back and forth, buy a second bike. Swapping the rear wheel starts to incur substantial time. If you have disc brakes the disc brakes need to be readjusted. If your rear cassette starts to get worn on one then swapping to the other will result in your chain wearing quicker. A lot of times on my bikes I've owned taking wheels off an putting them on again causes some minor annoying brake or rubbing issues or other small annoying issues. If space is an issue a folding bike doesn't take up that much more space than two wheels.

In my limited experience, I do not think that swapping two whole wheelsets can be done "quickly" with most bikes. Your situation sounds even more complicated - I would think changing tires would take no more time than doing all the work with 2 wheelsets.

So that's why I think what's best most of the time is:
1. 2 bikes if you have the space
2. Choosing a studded tire who's stud contact with the ground can be changed by putting more or less air in the tire.

If you had rim brakes and no dynamo, and you're just trying to avoid suddenly forming ice, swapping a front wheel back and forth might be worth it, but it doesn't sound like that's your situation.

My post was trying to offer suggestions on what studded tires are available and might work the best for #2 , without needing to change wheels.

I'd swap dyno for drum dyno on front, and n360 for internal 8 with coaster. No external brakes, no external drive gears, would have a chain case.

If I did the SE tripel as a dual season, id get 2 sets of tires aside from OEM, one knobby and one studded. I'd get fenders (probably the same I have on the uptown) plus a dyno hub on front and lights.

We'll see what happens. Gotta get the Tripel first....

- Andy

One MTB with always studs, one without, makes it pretty easy for me.

It simply doesn't get icy here often enough to justify a whole bike with studded tires, wouldn't get much use. We get maybe one or two storms /days a year that produce black or pervasive ice in enough quantity to even question riding. That was one day, tonight seems like another one, with the secondary roads basically one big sheet of ice. However with tonight one plow truck pass should clear all the residential streets off the main roads. It's cruncy ice/slush from the snow that fell, with sleet & freezing rain glaze on top.

- Andy

This is what most of the residential roads look like right now:





It isn't solid, there is a bit of snow (or snow remnant?) underneath, but the height of that bit underneath is like 1/8th inch and in a few spots its pure ice but very granular in the tire tread marks. I liken it to a graham-*******-pie-crust kind of ice. now on the other hand, some of the ice on solid surfaces like car windows etc is pure frozen rain coating with the signature multitude of icicles hanging off.

I would use studded tires on this, but it happens so rarely, and is salted/plowed so quickly in most instances that it isnt remotely a responsible purchase to ride a few hours a year, especially when i can wait till the plow comes and clears it from pretty much every street in town by sunrise.

- Andy

But, how else can I justify having another bike? Are you saying I don't need more bikes ??? Keep reality and responsible purchasing out of this please.

I'll preface this by saying that I hate using studs. They are heavy and slow and useless...except in conditions exactly like the ones you show. I know they are expensive and you may not use them that often but if you want to ride on those kinds of roads with any degree of confidence, they are worth the investment. Personally, I resisted owning a set for many, many years and have suffered my share of crashes. I've been using them on one of my bikes when conditions get bad for the last couple of years and find them to work as advertised. I still don't like riding them but they do work.

You could just purchase the tires and change them when it snows (cheapest but most inconvenient option), buy a set of wheels and change the wheels when it snows (next cheapest and slightly more convenient option) or get a dedicated bike (most expensive but most convenient option). Otherwise, you can ride without them and risk a crash or find another form of transportation until the roads are clear. It depends on how important riding a bike is to you.

I live in a place where having a dedicated winter bike, with studded tyres, makes perfect sense.

Only one?

I think I remember your home made studded tire. They can have the studs touch the ground or not depending on pressure. Was that you?

We have been building studded tyres here for decades, in most cases an off camber stud lets you ride with minimal stud contact when you are going in a straight line and those studs will engage in turns to give needed traction. In really craptastic weather dropping the tyre pressure a little brings the studs into continuous engagement.

These tyres wear extremely well and ride well on smooth clear roads since you are not continuously engaging the studs... tyres like the Marathon Winter suffer from premature wear on the central row of studs when they spend too much time on clear roads.

For some applications a double row of studs is useful if you need more traction... my Extrabike uses a rear with a central row of studs since it is easy to spin out on ice and if you pull a trailer in the winter this extra row of studs helps with traction and braking.

I have three winter bikes with studded tyres and my wife's bicycle is set up with a set of Marathon Winters, I also have a few spare front wheels with studded tyres that I could swap in to other bicycles for my own use for for folks who want to test them out. My 15 year old daughter and my wife also like to use my Raleigh 20 in the winter as it is stable and fun.

The icebike has Nokian 296 Extremes and rolls well on clear roads but is really set up for conditions where the roads are completely glazed with ice and where other tyres will still slip, including Marathon Winter tyres and my Schwalbe Snow Studs.

I was given a set of Snow studs and the Nokians this winter as well and was given a set of Marathon winter tyres for my Raleigh 20 a few years ago... a good number of my self studded tyres were given away through our co-op and to friends.

I concur.

I just about went nuts with having to change tires frequently due to slick conditions as a result of snow/ice, then thawing to clear roads, then back to slick, and so forth. I got this a lot in Great Falls where the Chinook winds (some say it means "snow eater") would clear things up rather quickly after a snow event. My winter bike was a fixed gear, so I found it much easier to have 2 sets of wheels, one with studded snow tires and one without. Since that bike is pretty simple -- no hub dynamo, no IGH and no cog set-- it was not expensive. That made changing in the early morning prior to work much quicker, when I needed it due to time constraints.

Now I live on the other side of the Rockies where we don't get the Chinook winds, so I've changed things up a bit. I now have a mountain bike that is fun to ride off road when conditions/daylight allow. In the winter, I just put studded snow tires on and use that bike when conditions dictate. So it is not literally a dedicated winter bike, but a dedicated foul winter conditions bike.

Otherwise I ride a road bike that may or may not have studded tires.

The vast majority of my (and I'd wager most people's) winter riding is on clear, dry roads. It's the unanticipated icy patches that you can't ride around where they prove their worth. ("Isn't...responsible" is a strange description for bicycle tires that last a really long time and at worst, slow you down a little. It's too bad you're not riding 559mm wheels, or I'd offer you a killer deal on some like-new Kenda Klondikes in that size. )

Just came back from my "night" ride...A lot of snow on the sidewalks and the grass, but roads are generally black. It was just above freezing point today, so a lot of water all around.

Here how it went...wet, wet, dry, wet, wet, snow, wet, wet, F@$*, sh#@!

All I know I have loose headset, but I will deal with it tomorrow. It was kind of hard/soft landing, so not a biggie. It all happened at 2.1 mph...

Clear dry roads? I wish. Try snowy foot paths, rutted MUP's with frozen footprints and bike tracks. The Minute Man bike path does get plowed, then it leaves a nice flat 1/2" of packed snow, ice & slush to pedal on. Changes on a daily basis. Roads are sometimes dry, icy, snow slush covered, brown snot, mashed potatoes snow. Take your pick, by the town and day it changes. Boston has lots of snow and plenty of freeze thaw. Clear and dry, maybe Memorial day this year We have had 110" of snow this year, more to follow.

I ride a bit over two miles on main thoroughfares with posted speeds ranging from 25 to 45 mph, so speed is a tad important on those faster bits.... the faster youre going the easier it is for traffic going the same direction to avoid you etc. I am thinking SE tripel with a sturdy full time drum/dyno front wheel and a set of studded tires to go on it in crap riding conditions would probably be my best option as i'm thinking about things more dynamically. If i get the ASI rack & fenders and light system, it would be "plug and play" simply gotta figure out best way to hang the wires, as i do not believe those models have wire guides or holes for wiring up lights etc. They (ASI) seem pretty open to fitting my needs on two levels... one the staff there understanding what i'm trying to do and options insofar as having parts available that are useable between their 3 primary brands (such as the conductor fenders for dyno lights & tubular rack used on my uptown), and all i gotta do is select a shop to do all the ordering & assembly work. I'm actually really excited... i just hope my rims last another 18 months or i'll have to skip second bike for a while (probably 1-2 years after new rims).


Most of my winter riding on the new bike has been in snow/slush. I've gotten wise to black ice and was able to get across town to the store this morning around 0100 hours. Black ice was here and there, but nowhere i'd be normally riding. The big issue that trip was potholes that i nickname DOT tunnels to china which are large, deep, and to be avoided at all costs as it would probably damage a wheel (or some other thing i cant afford to fix ).

However yea, i'm probably going to be getting studded tires for my birthday & the SE maybe november if all goes to plan if not sooner if some other stuff i've been waiting a while for comes through.

- Andy

A second set of wheels really only works well for a more conventional wheel set up. Once you start throwing generator hubs and/or drum brakes into the mix, things get complicated and expensive in a hurry. Even just changing the tires is slightly more complicated. I have a set of cheap wheels for my studded tires and I keep my good ones for better weather.

I would also say that once you go to a second bike, generator hubs and lights start adding a lot of expense. Battery lights really shine () when it comes to multiple bikes. The investment in the light system is roughly the same or even lower but you don't have to invest in 2 generator hub wheels and 2 light systems. This morning, for example, I went out to my garage and pulled the studded tired bike off the wall, took the lights off the last bike I rode to work and was out the door in less than 2 minutes. I have at least 5 bikes that I choose from to ride to work and swapping lights from one bike to another is trivial. And, at roughly $25 for each light head, cheap.

It may not be as convenient but if funds are a problem, battery lights can save you a lot of money towards that second bike.

Looks like the street in front of my house...

Only studs would have saved me.