I am never doing battery lights ever again. The headlamp on the uptown is like 4x my old battery light and that one was not a brand x piece of crap and i used it for many years and loved it. The SE has a fine front wheel, so after more thought, i'd probably just do the dyno brake hub with same rim and new spokes. Then i'd have a second set of tires for winter riding. Since the SE all ready has a rear coaster brake and the 3 speed hub, it'll all be enclosed and all i'd need to winterize it fully is a chaincase. Basically if my uptown is the pickup truck with all season tires, the SE would be my manual shift hatchback with all season and winter tires. When i'm done both will have rack, both will have fenders, both will have dyno lights, both will have internal rear hubs, and both will be used to minimize wear on one.

The SE will get the added front brake because it will be the one getting the winter/studded tires on. Does that make more sense to you now? Putting studded or simply more grippy treaded tires on a v brake wheel makes no sense to me, as it can get iced up (and has). So hopefully now you understand my reasoning behind not only the dyno drum brake but the plan for if/when i get the SE. It isn't just to have a second bike, it's to have a bike which is more capable and simpler and lighter than the uptown especially on icy/snowpacked days.

Another thing is that my uptown's dyno hub is making noises ive been told it shouldn't be, so it may need replacing...... if it is replaced why not just replace it with a hub that has a brake in it, that way if the v brake ices up i can still stop without grinding the rim into dust.


It is very strange here, just one day of sun and anything we get is pretty much melted by the next sundown. Thursday we got 10 inches, everything was closed schools etc before it even started to snow, then friday a lot of stuff was closed again, and only after putting salt down and getting sun on the paved parts is it now clear and dry.

- Andy

First, there is no need to get testy. You have mentioned many times how strapped you are for funds. Generator lights and the associated equipment cost a whole lot more than battery lights and having to equip multiple bikes increases that cost by the number of bikes you have. At, roughly, $200 per generator set up, that's a lot of money to have invested in one bike. It's a whole lot to have invested in two bikes if you are short on funds. It's your money but you are also the one who complains about not having money.

Additionally, the lights I was suggesting aren't "piece[s] of crap". My current lights have been working flawlessly for 3 winters now. Not a bad deal for $90 (3 x $30).

No, it doesn't make sense to me. But it makes sense to you. A v-brake (or any rim brake) has been perfectly serviceable for me through 35 winter commutes and I've never had a problem with them icing up...even in 10"+ of snow. But you do what you think is best for you. I'm not trying to stop you but I am trying to present you with alternatives that won't cost you as much. Excuse me for trying to help.

So now you are going to need three dyno wheels? That's the major part of the cost of a generator system.

I'm also confused. Are you going to run some kind of dual brake system so that you have a drum brake and a v-brake? Dual cable systems for brakes with different leverages are difficult to set up. It can be done but braking is going to be limited by the weakest brake. It would be better to pick one or the other. You don't really need both.

Sun is higher in the sky and the days are longer than in December or January. On a sunny day this time of year snow will melt even if the temp is only the 20s.

The sun makes a big difference. I can remember this deep wooded gulch I used to run by in college. Even in early May there would sometimes be snow left near the bottom because it almost never got any sun.

Right about that. Even in February in single digits at before 8 AM with sun low, I was able to feel a tinge of warmth when stopped at a light.

1. Not testy.
2. I was talking about my own previous battery light.
3. If im to be riding in ice and snow, i need to know i can slow and stop at any time.
4. The SE would need to be set up for winter riding if need be, and that costs money i'm willing to spend
5. No need to get all emotional.
6. The one i have now on the uptown may need replacing, in replacing it, i'd replace it with a dyno hub with a brake in it.
7. Not on the SE, it would be coaster rear (as stock) and drum front (add on).
8. The uptown has enough handlebar space for me to locate the front drum brake lever on the left (front) side.

Tripel: add drum/dyno front hub, stock rim, set of stock tires and add set of winter/studded tires, add front and rear light (the law here), add rack, add fenders, keep stock 3 speed internal hub with integrated coaster brake on rear, add chaincase.

Uptown: Stock except new drum/dyno front hub. The current dynohub is making a lot of noise, which ive been told isn't normal, so i'd simply swap out for the brake/dyno. Mount lever *** grip style on the left side to compliment the v brake OR simply remove the v brake and just use drum OR move the v brake to secondary position where i would have put the drum brake lever. Second set of tires that can handle snow (not studded).

I'm not worried about the cost of outfitting the tripel, because the whole purpose of getting the tripel is to have a bike that i can fully rely on all winter long for those rides that can't wait. Everything enclosed, front brake in case chain hops off AND increased stopping power, plus power for lights. It's the perfect foundation.... the uptown is simply a different bike and i don't want to put studded tires on it, because it's all ready a 36 lb tank... the tripel is 10 lbs lighter.......

Hope that clears things up.

- Andy

Just out of curiosity, do they apply sand/small gravel where you are when it is icy or snowy like they do around here?

I ask because what I experience is that, when it gets wet, the grit can get stuck to my rim brakes. Then, when I apply the brake, it embeds small particles in the brake and undermines the braking effectiveness and also wears away at the rim.

I am currently planning to get a new bike and to have disk brakes for it to try to circumvent this issue.

Your circumstances may be different than mine, even if they do a similar road treatment, if you have a way to avoid the roads. Or, maybe you just live with it? More than half of my commute is on the shoulder of a state highway, where the stuff gets thrown by the vehicle traffic, so there is no avoiding the sandy, gritty mess.

10 inches of dry powder snow is nothing and will not ice up your rims...Freezing drizzle, heavy wet snow, slush on the roads coupled with below freezing temps will ice up rims very quickly and compromise braking performance. Here in my area there is tons of salt and grit on the roads, every time you squeeze those rim brakes it's like taking a grinding disk to your rim, that stuff is extremely abrasive and will wear down rims very quickly.

Disk brakes have saved me a couple thousand in new rims.

I agree about disc brakes, I have some bikes set up with them and they are great in winter time...Riding my fixed gear has also saved my rims, I just stop using my drivetrain, no need to squeeze the brakes.

If disc can fit with dyno hub on the SE i'll do that instead.

- Andy

SE doesn't have disc brake mounts on the fork so you can't use discs, unless you change to a different fork which has a disk brake mount.

Something to consider.

- Andy

thanks for this thread. i haven't had an incident yet and hubs and i have decided not to ride if there's too much snow/water/slush in too cold temps. have thought about getting studded tires as a friend uses them out in denver for commuting. maybe next winter...

The off-season is the best time to buy them.

My biggest concern about black ice, which is a few days a year phenomenon here, is what if i judge wrong and go out with only slightly knobby tires only to crash 10 minutes into my ride? That is probably the biggest single factor in my decision to get a dedicated bike for these rides which can also be used year round with normal tread tires. I understand some people have a "winter bike" and their dry ride bike is not used in rain or snow etc, but i cant justify sidelining my uptown (a really, really wonderful thing to ride and have) all winter. So enter my winter plan: second year round/winter storm bike, and some minor changes to the uptown to make it better in plain snow.

Anyone else buy a bike just to handle black icy days, or do what i'm planning to do?

- Andy

It's seem like quite a number of people in these forums have a bike for every day of the week if not more. So I'm sure there are folks that have multiple bikes they'll use in the winter depending on conditions or mood.

I live in a different climate and for most of a typical winter I'll encounter some ice or some snow even if the roads are predominantly clear. So I ride the winter bike all the time from the first big snow of the year into March and sometimes April. I might be fine without the studded tires on several of the days but I don't want to expose more than one bike to the salt and crud that comes with winter riding. It adds a lot of extra maintenance.

A "dry" bike is something I don't have. Any bike I own will get ridden in the rain.

The question I'd have for you is whether it's really worth getting studded tires for the few days a year that you'd intend to use them. It sounds like you have some other ambitious plans for your bikes and you could save some cash by forgoing the studded tires and taking the bus on icy days instead.

I have a nicer winter bike now but for many years the studded tires were worth more than the bikes I had them on. They're not cheap. If you are going to buy them though, in the next few weeks is when you can find some deals.

Taking the bus? The bus here goes through town, pretty useless for me unless I'm going outside of town.

- Andy

I have 2 dedicated winter commuters, studded tires stay on all year. The rockhopper has 26 x1.95 nokian mount and grounds for really nasty conditions. Like slush, lots of snow and rutted, icy MUP's. This also has a front sus fork and disc brakes, awesome in the New England Tundra. The Fuji has 700 x 35 mm nokian with drop bars and a 1x8 drivetrain for less severe conditions.

A simple change to a bike you like to ride is add/remove a studded tire on the front wheel. I've done this in the past. I know have two winter bikes, one for ice (studded tire MTB) and one for snow (fatbike). I saw this great price on a studded tire today and wanted to share - Nokian Hakkapeliitta 72 Studs 700x32 - Freewheel Bike Shop - Minneapolis - Twin Cities - St. Paul

Other winter bikers in Minneapolis suggested front-only studded tire, for commuting you want the grip on the front wheel for stopping and steering. The only issue with the rear wheel is you can spin out at a start and slip into ruts. I find both of this rear wheel issues easy to deal with, rarely gone done because my rear wheel slipped out. I have gone down, hard, when my front slips out.

I have tried many combinations and for the ice bike, I have a Nokia Mount & Ground on the front and Conti Top Contact Winter on the rear. This combo has kept me on my bike in a wide variety of icy conditions.

The main reason I have dedicated winter bikes is two-fold, I can have a lot of bikes (lots of storage space) and I'm kinda busy (I don't always have time to change tires on a days notice). ... or maybe I'm just lazy. My bike commuting buddy puts studded tires on his LHT after the first snow and leaves them on until the snow/ice is all melted in the spring. I've thought out this for my Kona, but like I said, I have the space to keep old bikes.... Now I'm just rambling.

Hm, interesting. I'm not opposed to the idea of studded tires on the uptown. That said, the bike unloaded all ready weighs 36 lbs. Adding more weight is something I am kind of opposed to, as it affects handling and pedal effort.

My thinking on the SE, is that it has a coaster brake, so it's all ready half way "all weather". Just add drum dyno hub in front, lights, fenders, and rack, and I'll probably still be well below the weight of the uptown, especially seeing as a drum dyno hub, will likely go on the uptown as well as a few other bits & bobs.

The SE is 700c on top of all that, which makes it handle a bit more responsively and better leverage.

- Andy

Freewheel has had 2 for 1 sales on their studded tires in the Spring before. That might be in store only though. The particular tire that they're closing out is one I'm not particularly fond of. Not enough studs. I think they're the only studded tires I've ever used that I crashed on ice with. However, I'm willing to entertain the notion that I'm klutzier than most.

Aren't you thinking of below zero Celsius, not Fahrenheit? And how does the hot exhaust move downward to the pavement? In my experience hot air rises and, when it's really cold, water vapour instantly crystallizes or just vanishes.

In fact, when it's really cold -- like it is in midwinter Winnipeg -- my experience is that black ice was not a problem as there is no water around to form ice though a layer of packed snow can be very slippery. Black ice seems to more of a problem in Toronto where temperatures often flirt with the freezing mark (32F 0C) as there can be water lying about that freezes in a sheet when the temperature drops below freezing. It looks just like water and can be a surprise.

Anyhow, I see you're from Minneapolis and would have thought we had similar experiences but apparently not.

My wife and I headed out on an MUP last January and were very slowly and carefully and studlessly picking our way over areas of "white ice." We were fine until we hit an area where the path sloped down a bit toward the river and then it was an instant unavoidable crash. In fact, I started sliding down toward the water and was relieved when I stopped. It was hard to stand up -- too slippery and not flat -- and hard to shuffle back to dry land. The good thing about ice is that you slide on it when you fall and that, along with layers of clothing, mitigates a lot of injury. Just ask any hockey player.

I'd like to be able to ride in the winter so it's time to buy some studded tires.

30-40F is the black ice sweet spot (keeping in mind most thermometers are a few feet above the ground so measuring warmer temp than the ground itself)

Air temp is less critical than ground or pavement temp in black ice formation. There are many ways black ice can occur, including vapor deposition (ie. dew) melt/refreeze, etc.

As far as car exhaust is concerned, the exhaust doesn't have to reach the pavement. As the exhaust hits the cold air, the vapor in it condenses (why we see the "steam") and settles on the road surface. The process is nearly identical to dew formation which causes major black ice issues in places like the Plain of Venice. It's also the same basic process that causes skiers to form ice beards.

So there's one label that can describe many similar problems. What makes it Black Ice isn't how it forms, but the fact that it's thin and just about invisible, so there's no warning before you're on it.

BTW - you get the most black ice when air temps are near o slightly above freezing, and the pavement is well below freezing.

I expect that's why we rarely if ever saw black ice in Winnipeg though it's a phenomenon in the East. Prairie air temperatures are too cold -- rarely hovering around freezing -- and the air is too dry. If water vapour precipitates (i.e. if the air can't hold the water vapour at that temperature) the precipitate freezes in the air and turns directly to ice crystals.

Your point is taken that moisture-laden air (whatever the source of the moisture and more likely natural moisture than exhaust), just-above-freezing air will deposit the moisture on colder surfaces. Hence "bridge ices" signs. Those 32F/0C temperatures lead to treacherous conditions.

And I just picked up my 45nrth Gravdal studded tires so bring on the ice.