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Rim recommendations - old bike

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Rim recommendations - old bike

Old 01-27-17, 04:00 PM
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Rim recommendations - old bike

I'm over here from C&V, and have an older ('82) steel frame I'm building up for gravel.

The largest width (as mounted) I will be able to go with is about 38mm to have any real chainstay clearance.
I have decided to run clinchers, maybe with a tubeless ready rim, however.
Rim brakes - this is an older frame - centerpulls. I've tested with a 23mm external width rim / 38mm inflated tire and can both remove the wheel/tire and still set the brakes to be able to brake. So good to go there. A wider rim would work as well.

Here's what I'm looking at:
I'm thinking that minimum 18mm internal width rim/about 23mm external should work for my 38mm size tire. I have the hubs sitting around, so in looking for 18-20mm rims I've come across a few so far that aren't pricey ($90 to $190/pair on these)- the DTSwiss 460, Velocity A23, American Classic AC2218, the H+Sons Archetype, even possibly the AC Victory 30 rims. The AC2218 is by far the lightest (375g), maybe too light, the others are all +/-10g from 460g. Right now the H+ seems to be the best mix of price vs. durability. Any yeas or nays on any [or all] of these, or other suggestions?


Have at it.
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Old 01-27-17, 04:35 PM
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I have H PLus Son Archetypes. No complaints at all. Tires(3 types from 3 brands so far) mount easily and they dont feel flexible.
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Old 01-28-17, 06:32 AM
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The R460 is an excellent value (usually priced well under the $80/pair). A little shallower profile than some of the other options and the joint is pinned instead of welded, but they build up very round and have held up great on my commuter/gravel bike. The Archetypes are quite nice but my two complaints with them are the lack of a machined brake track and the lack of tubeless support.

If brand cachet isn't important to you, you may also want to check out the various Kinlin offerings (bikehubstore.com has a good selection).

Last, but not least, if you want to preserve the vintage look, you might consider the Sun-Ringle CR18 -- traditional box section look in a strong, double-wall, 18mm internal rim. Relatively inexpensive and extremely durable (they were a popular cyclocross training rim until disc brakes took over).
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Old 01-28-17, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kopsis
The R460 is an excellent value (usually priced well under the $80/pair). A little shallower profile than some of the other options and the joint is pinned instead of welded, but they build up very round and have held up great on my commuter/gravel bike. The Archetypes are quite nice but my two complaints with them are the lack of a machined brake track and the lack of tubeless support.

If brand cachet isn't important to you, you may also want to check out the various Kinlin offerings (bikehubstore.com has a good selection).

Last, but not least, if you want to preserve the vintage look, you might consider the Sun-Ringle CR18 -- traditional box section look in a strong, double-wall, 18mm internal rim. Relatively inexpensive and extremely durable (they were a popular cyclocross training rim until disc brakes took over).
Thanks, re-checked out the Kinlins. Most of them are narrower (road) and I think that's what I ran across before. BHS did have a 23mm rim, and the cost shipped = just about what I've found the H+ for. But they're also about 30g heavier per rim. But it would be nice to have a brake track.

My first thought about the 460 was that maybe $20-$30 cheaper/pair for the shallower profile, but the same weight and pinned vs welded, it just kind of dropped out.

I'll relook at the CR18, I have built 27" wheels with Suns (AR18 maybe?) and they built nicely. Probably go black on this build though, or at least black spokes - have a bunch of them from a closed LBS.
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Old 01-28-17, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
I have H PLus Son Archetypes. No complaints at all. Tires(3 types from 3 brands so far) mount easily and they dont feel flexible.
Kopsis mentioned the lack of a brake track. It's hilly around here - not long descents but 7-12% grades are common. Would that concern you on the your H+?
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Old 01-28-17, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres
Kopsis mentioned the lack of a brake track. It's hilly around here - not long descents but 7-12% grades are common. Would that concern you on the your H+?
It has a brake track, the track just isnt machined. I have 1 bike with machined track rims and 5 without. I stop the same on all of them.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/machined-rims.html

Jobst says it best. I dont give a second thought to if a rim brake is machined or not. Maybe my standards are low?...or maybe there isnt much to machining rims.
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Old 01-28-17, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres
I'm over here from C&V, and have an older ('82) steel frame I'm building up for gravel.

The largest width (as mounted) I will be able to go with is about 38mm to have any real chainstay clearance.
I have decided to run clinchers, maybe with a tubeless ready rim, however.
Rim brakes - this is an older frame - centerpulls. I've tested with a 23mm external width rim / 38mm inflated tire and can both remove the wheel/tire and still set the brakes to be able to brake. So good to go there. A wider rim would work as well.

Here's what I'm looking at:
I'm thinking that minimum 18mm internal width rim/about 23mm external should work for my 38mm size tire. I have the hubs sitting around, so in looking for 18-20mm rims I've come across a few so far that aren't pricey ($90 to $190/pair on these)- the DTSwiss 460, Velocity A23, American Classic AC2218, the H+Sons Archetype, even possibly the AC Victory 30 rims. The AC2218 is by far the lightest (375g), maybe too light, the others are all +/-10g from 460g. Right now the H+ seems to be the best mix of price vs. durability. Any yeas or nays on any [or all] of these, or other suggestions?


Have at it.

I would vote H+, durable but also a nice price point. Sub-400gram alloy rims, like Am Classic, do not have a great reputation for durability even on road.

What hubs are you using and what lacing? Being vintage steel, have you re-spaced the dropouts? Or are you using some vintage hubs?

Originally Posted by Ex Pres
Kopsis mentioned the lack of a brake track. It's hilly around here - not long descents but 7-12% grades are common. Would that concern you on the your H+?
They have a brake track, it is just anodized over. Over time it'll wear off and look silver like any normal rim-brake wheel.
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Old 01-28-17, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
It has a brake track, the track just isnt machined. I have 1 bike with machined track rims and 5 without. I stop the same on all of them.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/machined-rims.html

Jobst says it best. I dont give a second thought to if a rim brake is machined or not. Maybe my standards are low?...or maybe there isnt much to machining rims.

Thanks, another possible option I've found in my search is some black brake track Pacenti 23s at almost identical price to the H+, and they are a little lighter (~20g ea), even with 1mm deeper and 1mm wider profile.


Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
I would vote H+, durable but also a nice price point. Sub-400gram alloy rims, like Am Classic, do not have a great reputation for durability even on road.

What hubs are you using and what lacing? Being vintage steel, have you re-spaced the dropouts? Or are you using some vintage hubs?



They have a brake track, it is just anodized over. Over time it'll wear off and look silver like any normal rim-brake wheel.
Since my "modern" bikes are 10s Campy, and this mostly parts bin build will use some orphan 10s components, including a set of 10s hubs I have - that's what it's going to get. I haven't cold set the frame, but might, so I don't have to stretch the rear each time.

Thanks you guys for your help.
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Old 01-28-17, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres
Thanks, another possible option I've found in my search is some black brake track Pacenti 23s at almost identical price to the H+, and they are a little lighter (~20g ea), even with 1mm deeper and 1mm wider profile.




Since my "modern" bikes are 10s Campy, and this mostly parts bin build will use some orphan 10s components, including a set of 10s hubs I have - that's what it's going to get. I haven't cold set the frame, but might, so I don't have to stretch the rear each time.

Thanks you guys for your help.

DO NOT GO TO SL23 PACENTI RIMS.

All of the revisions of SL23 have had eyelet cracking, all wheelbuilders have seen it who have built them. Pacenti has ceased production of SL23, and all stock on sale is NOS. Pacenti has issued a replacement called "Forza" that is now available for sale (effective January 2017).

Note: this warning only applies to SL23v1 and v2. SL25, despite being a similar design, has been unaffected by the long-term longevity problems that sank SL23.
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Old 01-28-17, 10:26 AM
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Mindblow- it does have a machined track. The ridges are much finer than my other rims with a machined track, so combine that with the anodize and it makes it seem like there isnt a track.
Really fine lined track for sure.
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Old 01-28-17, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
DO NOT GO TO SL23 PACENTI RIMS.

All of the revisions of SL23 have had eyelet cracking, all wheelbuilders have seen it who have built them. Pacenti has ceased production of SL23, and all stock on sale is NOS. Pacenti has issued a replacement called "Forza" that is now available for sale (effective January 2017).

Note: this warning only applies to SL23v1 and v2. SL25, despite being a similar design, has been unaffected by the long-term longevity problems that sank SL23.

Thanks, a search yielded some stories of what you speak, including one BF thread started by a guy I saw just last weekend at a local race (I'm slow - an official - he races). He even used spoke nipples on his build, which I was thinking about when you mentioned the failure. So no SL23s. And the SL25 appears to be disc only.

I found one listing on the Forza, at $109/ea and only one drilling, 20H, not mine. That's there with the Hed C2 on price, and probably more than I'll spend. Past my "parts bin" budget for this, when I can buy a pair of H+ for that.
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Old 01-28-17, 11:45 AM
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If building wheels for an old bike to use for gravel grinding, why not go with 650b? You'll have to change out the brakes. You will be able to mount a fatter tire than with a 700c and gain more clearance around the stays.
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Old 01-28-17, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres
Thanks, a search yielded some stories of what you speak, including one BF thread started by a guy I saw just last weekend at a local race (I'm slow - an official - he races). He even used spoke nipples on his build, which I was thinking about when you mentioned the failure. So no SL23s. And the SL25 appears to be disc only.

I found one listing on the Forza, at $109/ea and only one drilling, 20H, not mine. That's there with the Hed C2 on price, and probably more than I'll spend. Past my "parts bin" budget for this, when I can buy a pair of H+ for that.
Yea, Pacentis of all stripes have never been cheap full retail....not unless compared to HED Belgiums ($120or $150 for C2 or +). Forza is available in all drillings:

New! Pacenti Forza Rim (MSW)

Early reviews from Dave@November cycles and others say it laces into a nice wheel. The SL23 problems took 6-12 months to set in, which is why Pacenti has been very quietly beta testing the Forza in the wild with wheelbuilders for a year now I think.
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Old 01-28-17, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemig
If building wheels for an old bike to use for gravel grinding, why not go with 650b? You'll have to change out the brakes. You will be able to mount a fatter tire than with a 700c and gain more clearance around the stays.
Then the brakes won't come from the parts bin, either.

And I'd lose the ability to swap out wheelsets between bikes. Not that I do it often, but it happens. And no swapping tires in a pinch.

I'm trying to simplify my bike life a little. Gone are my 8s Ergo bikes & almost all Shimano STI (one 8s DA left). Of course now that I've settled in on Campy 10 as my "modern" drivetrain, I'm sure parts will become unobtanium. Heck, even rim brake compatible components are disappearing.
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Old 01-28-17, 11:59 AM
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The Archetype's are awesome. I've put mine through lots and lots of miles across all surfaces with two or three cross seasons under them to boot. And they are the one thing on the bike that hasn't needed any attention in that the last two years. They are a well built, good looking rim, that shouldn't give you any trouble.

They are not tubeless, but from everything I've read and seen they should set up very easily.

The lack of a machined brake track has not been an issue at all. You're more likely to lock up a wheel than go careening off the side of a mountain because you couldn't slow down fast enough.
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Old 01-28-17, 02:07 PM
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Well, with your comments I decided to go for the H+ Archetype. Wish they were cheaper, but fit my budget OK @ $120/pr delivered.
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Old 01-28-17, 05:05 PM
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In the interest of clarity, my gripe with the Archetypes anodized brake track is all about aesthetics, not performance. As the brakes wear through the anodizing, they create a somewhat irregular silver stripe that flares up my OCD
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