How to run low psi w/o foldover?
09-18-17, 11:50 AM
#26
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Just checked the link above, the gauge I have is the Meiser one as well. It was $14 on Amazon.
Mine only goes to 60psi and has a little button to let air out slowly, so it's super easy to dial in for CX range.
Mine only goes to 60psi and has a little button to let air out slowly, so it's super easy to dial in for CX range.
09-18-17, 12:48 PM
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Jingle Cross. Apparently, I raced on 32R, 22F, on clinchers. Yes I bottomed out the front, but it felt really fast and never lost traction in the front. I knew my front was soft but didn't realize how low it was until my buddy put a gauge on it.
09-18-17, 02:11 PM
#28
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How'd you do? Have a good time? Giant field?
09-19-17, 07:11 PM
#30
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09-19-17, 08:14 PM
#31
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Thread Starter
Just some random additions to the conversation:
I'm about 165lbs, my tubular race setup is on a Major Tom rim (23mm width I think?), with 33mm Challenge Baby Limus tires.
For regular trail riding and training rides, I typically run these around 35psi on them and have zero fold-over in turns, never feel the rim on bumps, etc. They're still pretty soft and floaty at that pressure, but firm enough that I also don't feel like they're an anchor on pavement.
For racing I usually do a pre-ride at 25psi and adjust for conditions from there. Last weekend's race I was running them at 25psi, as the course was very dry and relatively smooth. I tried to go lower (like 22psi) but could feel the rear folding over when I accelerated hard out of tight corners, and the front felt a little mushy on fast downhill sweepers, so I went back up to 25psi.
I'm about 165lbs, my tubular race setup is on a Major Tom rim (23mm width I think?), with 33mm Challenge Baby Limus tires.
For regular trail riding and training rides, I typically run these around 35psi on them and have zero fold-over in turns, never feel the rim on bumps, etc. They're still pretty soft and floaty at that pressure, but firm enough that I also don't feel like they're an anchor on pavement.
For racing I usually do a pre-ride at 25psi and adjust for conditions from there. Last weekend's race I was running them at 25psi, as the course was very dry and relatively smooth. I tried to go lower (like 22psi) but could feel the rear folding over when I accelerated hard out of tight corners, and the front felt a little mushy on fast downhill sweepers, so I went back up to 25psi.
10-30-17, 03:34 PM
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Interesting notes and comments.
Saturday I ran 25F and 30R on my race. Tires measure about 38mm though. I don't think I've ever gone that low mountain bike racing, because the sidewalls fold over. But 38mm is pinched on my rim much less than the 60mm mountain bike tires.
I get too much tire squirm on the road going below 40psi, but 25/30 seemed to work well on the cyclocross track (long as I didn't hit any roots at 25mph). I use skinny strippers on tubless tires to ensure I don't "burp"
Saturday I ran 25F and 30R on my race. Tires measure about 38mm though. I don't think I've ever gone that low mountain bike racing, because the sidewalls fold over. But 38mm is pinched on my rim much less than the 60mm mountain bike tires.
I get too much tire squirm on the road going below 40psi, but 25/30 seemed to work well on the cyclocross track (long as I didn't hit any roots at 25mph). I use skinny strippers on tubless tires to ensure I don't "burp"
10-30-17, 03:42 PM
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Interesting notes and comments.
Saturday I ran 25F and 30R on my race. Tires measure about 38mm though. I don't think I've ever gone that low mountain bike racing, because the sidewalls fold over. But 38mm is pinched on my rim much less than the 60mm mountain bike tires.
I get too much tire squirm on the road going below 40psi, but 25/30 seemed to work well on the cyclocross track (long as I didn't hit any roots at 25mph). I use skinny strippers on tubless tires to ensure I don't "burp"
Saturday I ran 25F and 30R on my race. Tires measure about 38mm though. I don't think I've ever gone that low mountain bike racing, because the sidewalls fold over. But 38mm is pinched on my rim much less than the 60mm mountain bike tires.
I get too much tire squirm on the road going below 40psi, but 25/30 seemed to work well on the cyclocross track (long as I didn't hit any roots at 25mph). I use skinny strippers on tubless tires to ensure I don't "burp"
10-31-17, 01:29 PM
#34
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skinnystripper.com work great. They basically seal the tire to the latex strip after a few days (when used with latex sealant). They are very thin and light weight. If you are careful, you can take the tire off the wheel and the tire will still hold air (although it is very easy to tear the latex strip when removing).
I set up a set of non tubeless continental tire/wheels and a set of Maxxis tubeless tire/wheel with skinnystrippers.
Best features:
- when running tubeless on a non tubeless setup - it allows me to fully deflate the tire (thus loosing the bead), add sealant and re-inflate with no issues.
- prevents burping when running very low pressures on tubeless wheel/tire combos.
- Allowed me to do a ghetto tubeless setup.
- keeps the sealant off the wheel.
Drawbacks:
- Have to go directly to the web site, can not safely google the name skinnystripper or fattystripper.
- none other that I can think of. They are fairly cheap and light.
10-31-17, 04:54 PM
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At the risk of sounding like an advertisement...
skinnystripper.com work great. They basically seal the tire to the latex strip after a few days (when used with latex sealant). They are very thin and light weight. If you are careful, you can take the tire off the wheel and the tire will still hold air (although it is very easy to tear the latex strip when removing).
I set up a set of non tubeless continental tire/wheels and a set of Maxxis tubeless tire/wheel with skinnystrippers.
Best features:
- when running tubeless on a non tubeless setup - it allows me to fully deflate the tire (thus loosing the bead), add sealant and re-inflate with no issues.
- prevents burping when running very low pressures on tubeless wheel/tire combos.
- Allowed me to do a ghetto tubeless setup.
- keeps the sealant off the wheel.
Drawbacks:
- Have to go directly to the web site, can not safely google the name skinnystripper or fattystripper.
- none other that I can think of. They are fairly cheap and light.
skinnystripper.com work great. They basically seal the tire to the latex strip after a few days (when used with latex sealant). They are very thin and light weight. If you are careful, you can take the tire off the wheel and the tire will still hold air (although it is very easy to tear the latex strip when removing).
I set up a set of non tubeless continental tire/wheels and a set of Maxxis tubeless tire/wheel with skinnystrippers.
Best features:
- when running tubeless on a non tubeless setup - it allows me to fully deflate the tire (thus loosing the bead), add sealant and re-inflate with no issues.
- prevents burping when running very low pressures on tubeless wheel/tire combos.
- Allowed me to do a ghetto tubeless setup.
- keeps the sealant off the wheel.
Drawbacks:
- Have to go directly to the web site, can not safely google the name skinnystripper or fattystripper.
- none other that I can think of. They are fairly cheap and light.
11-01-17, 08:21 AM
#36
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Yep, the strip comes out with the tire - since there is no sealant on the wheel. Usually I just add sealant, but it is easy to peal the latex strip off the tire to clean it out. that would require a n).w strip to reinstall - they are not really reusable (since you cut them to size after mounting the tire on the wheel).
11-05-17, 11:22 PM
#37
Senior Member
To preface, I keep pretty religious records of tires, pressure and conditions. I use one of the 'accu-gauge' mechanical gauges (that somebody linked) I have for 4 years now. I compare notes with several buddies that I race with and we all generally agree on what I'll lay out below.
For context I race Cat 1/2 and am 175-180.
I'll come out and say it up front, for the average Joe I think tubulars are a waste of money. Performance is probably a fraction better than a good tubeless setup, but the downside is the multiple wheelsets needed and the huge PITA factor when (not if) you flat. If you are running them at the pressures they need to be run for an advantage, you are going to flat. Ask me how I know. I've flatted $120 tubulars more than once, I don't glue them up, so have to pay another $60 to get installed + the time involved. I started running cheaper tubulars (Schwalbe), but flatted the first lap, after all that effort of getting to race, race fees, gas, etc, major bummer.
Decided to figure out the tubeless thing. 3-4 years ago the options were limited, HUGE array of options now, particularly since the gravel thing is blowing up. I run tubeless on all my bikes, no burping, low pressure, reliably. How low? I never go over 27psi. Had a race early today, 33c tires, 23/25 psi, in mud (no roots!), didn't bottom out. I have some bigger 36/38's I can get away with 24/25 in dry fast conditions and 42c I can reliably run 21/22 in off camber, fast tight courses. I take my bike on some tame (by MTB standards) trails for practice and run 30/30 due to the roots, works well enough.
There is a massive element to the technique. It's like driving a car on snow, you really gotta know when the tires is going to break loose/roll and you really need to focus on being smooth. Ride 'light', take the right lines and don't square off corners. Easier said than done and it takes a while.
The pros have years and years of experiencing figuring it out. The pressures they run is really low. BUT, remember, most of the courses they are on are NOT transformed parking lots and fairgrounds. They don't have the same BS we deal with and the courses flow much better. Not sure if you follow CX on the world level, but last year the World Champ course was not typical and was really rocky and one of the top racers (MVDP) had like 3 or 4 flats, which likely cost him the race. It was muddy so it's not like they could run higher pressure.
Many of the NEW wheels and NEW tires work really well together. I say NEW because older stuff is hit or miss and most manuf. have really gotten it figured out recently. Also converted wheels/tires are a liability. Stans stuff works great. I've had good luck with Reynolds too. I (along with several buddies) can vouch for Specialized tires, WTB's and the Ritchey stuff. They seal up well and really don't need to worry about burping.
I think if your comparing a high end 33c to a good newer 38c tubeless, I'd give the performance nod to the tubeless.
Conservative approach is take my PSI figures and bump them up 2-3 psi (27-30). They get sketchy in the slop and you'll give up some performance at the limit, but you'll pretty much eliminate burping with reasonable riding. I find a big difference in PSI, hanging with the top guys vs getting dropped in the mud is 2-3 psi difference, to me.
After saying all that, it's not perfect, nothing is. The irony is after all the build up of tubless being awesome, last weekend was the first time I burped a tire in several years, go figure. In a race last weekend had a downhill switchback with a big berm (berms in CX, really?). I went in too hot and hit the berm full speed at a funky angle, went straight into the berm and botched the corner. I crashed hard and bottomed out my front tire hard, lap 3 of 8. My tire burped in the mishap and had the rest of the race with it super low. Still hung on to finish well, bike felt like crap, was all over the place braking into corners, was super wallowy on the pavement and was bottoming out HARD on the downhills. Checked when I was done, 14 psi! It held though, was rideable and I only gave up 1 place. I'd think I would have stood a good chance of flatting a tubular.
For context I race Cat 1/2 and am 175-180.
I'll come out and say it up front, for the average Joe I think tubulars are a waste of money. Performance is probably a fraction better than a good tubeless setup, but the downside is the multiple wheelsets needed and the huge PITA factor when (not if) you flat. If you are running them at the pressures they need to be run for an advantage, you are going to flat. Ask me how I know. I've flatted $120 tubulars more than once, I don't glue them up, so have to pay another $60 to get installed + the time involved. I started running cheaper tubulars (Schwalbe), but flatted the first lap, after all that effort of getting to race, race fees, gas, etc, major bummer.
Decided to figure out the tubeless thing. 3-4 years ago the options were limited, HUGE array of options now, particularly since the gravel thing is blowing up. I run tubeless on all my bikes, no burping, low pressure, reliably. How low? I never go over 27psi. Had a race early today, 33c tires, 23/25 psi, in mud (no roots!), didn't bottom out. I have some bigger 36/38's I can get away with 24/25 in dry fast conditions and 42c I can reliably run 21/22 in off camber, fast tight courses. I take my bike on some tame (by MTB standards) trails for practice and run 30/30 due to the roots, works well enough.
There is a massive element to the technique. It's like driving a car on snow, you really gotta know when the tires is going to break loose/roll and you really need to focus on being smooth. Ride 'light', take the right lines and don't square off corners. Easier said than done and it takes a while.
The pros have years and years of experiencing figuring it out. The pressures they run is really low. BUT, remember, most of the courses they are on are NOT transformed parking lots and fairgrounds. They don't have the same BS we deal with and the courses flow much better. Not sure if you follow CX on the world level, but last year the World Champ course was not typical and was really rocky and one of the top racers (MVDP) had like 3 or 4 flats, which likely cost him the race. It was muddy so it's not like they could run higher pressure.
Many of the NEW wheels and NEW tires work really well together. I say NEW because older stuff is hit or miss and most manuf. have really gotten it figured out recently. Also converted wheels/tires are a liability. Stans stuff works great. I've had good luck with Reynolds too. I (along with several buddies) can vouch for Specialized tires, WTB's and the Ritchey stuff. They seal up well and really don't need to worry about burping.
I think if your comparing a high end 33c to a good newer 38c tubeless, I'd give the performance nod to the tubeless.
Conservative approach is take my PSI figures and bump them up 2-3 psi (27-30). They get sketchy in the slop and you'll give up some performance at the limit, but you'll pretty much eliminate burping with reasonable riding. I find a big difference in PSI, hanging with the top guys vs getting dropped in the mud is 2-3 psi difference, to me.
After saying all that, it's not perfect, nothing is. The irony is after all the build up of tubless being awesome, last weekend was the first time I burped a tire in several years, go figure. In a race last weekend had a downhill switchback with a big berm (berms in CX, really?). I went in too hot and hit the berm full speed at a funky angle, went straight into the berm and botched the corner. I crashed hard and bottomed out my front tire hard, lap 3 of 8. My tire burped in the mishap and had the rest of the race with it super low. Still hung on to finish well, bike felt like crap, was all over the place braking into corners, was super wallowy on the pavement and was bottoming out HARD on the downhills. Checked when I was done, 14 psi! It held though, was rideable and I only gave up 1 place. I'd think I would have stood a good chance of flatting a tubular.
Last edited by nickw; 11-05-17 at 11:41 PM.
11-05-17, 11:57 PM
#38
Senior Member
At the risk of sounding like an advertisement...
skinnystripper.com work great. They basically seal the tire to the latex strip after a few days (when used with latex sealant). They are very thin and light weight. If you are careful, you can take the tire off the wheel and the tire will still hold air (although it is very easy to tear the latex strip when removing).
I set up a set of non tubeless continental tire/wheels and a set of Maxxis tubeless tire/wheel with skinnystrippers.
Best features:
- when running tubeless on a non tubeless setup - it allows me to fully deflate the tire (thus loosing the bead), add sealant and re-inflate with no issues.
- prevents burping when running very low pressures on tubeless wheel/tire combos.
- Allowed me to do a ghetto tubeless setup.
- keeps the sealant off the wheel.
Drawbacks:
- Have to go directly to the web site, can not safely google the name skinnystripper or fattystripper.
- none other that I can think of. They are fairly cheap and light.
skinnystripper.com work great. They basically seal the tire to the latex strip after a few days (when used with latex sealant). They are very thin and light weight. If you are careful, you can take the tire off the wheel and the tire will still hold air (although it is very easy to tear the latex strip when removing).
I set up a set of non tubeless continental tire/wheels and a set of Maxxis tubeless tire/wheel with skinnystrippers.
Best features:
- when running tubeless on a non tubeless setup - it allows me to fully deflate the tire (thus loosing the bead), add sealant and re-inflate with no issues.
- prevents burping when running very low pressures on tubeless wheel/tire combos.
- Allowed me to do a ghetto tubeless setup.
- keeps the sealant off the wheel.
Drawbacks:
- Have to go directly to the web site, can not safely google the name skinnystripper or fattystripper.
- none other that I can think of. They are fairly cheap and light.
11-06-17, 12:04 AM
#39
Senior Member
I'll second what some other folks said, gauges are very variable. Using one for your own consistent measurements is the most important factor. My 25 may be your 23 or 27. Doubt it's much further out than that, but 2 psi can make all the difference in the world....like riding an off camber section consistently vs sliding down it.
11-06-17, 10:37 AM
#40
Senior Member
Great info @nickw. Thanks!
My experience with tubeless is pretty similar, although I don't have any experience with tubulars to compare.
That said, I'm 10 races in on the same set of tubeless wheels and tires and I love them. Only ever burped the front tire completely in a pre-ride, but it went right back together with a floor pump, was good enough for 4th place that day and held ever since.
I'd like to try a different set of tires but I'm nervous that they won't perform as well. Why mess with a good thing? That and I typically run a little higher pressures around 35ish since I'm a newer rider and consistently banging into things and screwing up corners.
My experience with tubeless is pretty similar, although I don't have any experience with tubulars to compare.
That said, I'm 10 races in on the same set of tubeless wheels and tires and I love them. Only ever burped the front tire completely in a pre-ride, but it went right back together with a floor pump, was good enough for 4th place that day and held ever since.
I'd like to try a different set of tires but I'm nervous that they won't perform as well. Why mess with a good thing? That and I typically run a little higher pressures around 35ish since I'm a newer rider and consistently banging into things and screwing up corners.
11-06-17, 11:33 AM
#41
Senior Member
Great info @nickw. Thanks!
My experience with tubeless is pretty similar, although I don't have any experience with tubulars to compare.
That said, I'm 10 races in on the same set of tubeless wheels and tires and I love them. Only ever burped the front tire completely in a pre-ride, but it went right back together with a floor pump, was good enough for 4th place that day and held ever since.
I'd like to try a different set of tires but I'm nervous that they won't perform as well. Why mess with a good thing? That and I typically run a little higher pressures around 35ish since I'm a newer rider and consistently banging into things and screwing up corners.
My experience with tubeless is pretty similar, although I don't have any experience with tubulars to compare.
That said, I'm 10 races in on the same set of tubeless wheels and tires and I love them. Only ever burped the front tire completely in a pre-ride, but it went right back together with a floor pump, was good enough for 4th place that day and held ever since.
I'd like to try a different set of tires but I'm nervous that they won't perform as well. Why mess with a good thing? That and I typically run a little higher pressures around 35ish since I'm a newer rider and consistently banging into things and screwing up corners.
It’s also very location specific. Here in Oregon it’s usually wet, although it’s been fairly dry this year. In wet conditions you can get away with lower psi, speeds are typically much slower and your tires slide rather than stick and fold. I’d say 3-5 psi lower, easy for you at that pressure.
11-06-17, 12:17 PM
#42
Senior Member
I’d start experimenting with 2-3 PSI lower and inch down into that high 20 psi range (assuming you in the same weight range as me). Can you pre-ride the course at all? That’s the time you should be experimenting, hit tricky sections fast, several times. Carry gauge with you and just get a feel for it.
It’s also very location specific. Here in Oregon it’s usually wet, although it’s been fairly dry this year. In wet conditions you can get away with lower psi, speeds are typically much slower and your tires slide rather than stick and fold. I’d say 3-5 psi lower, easy for you at that pressure.
It’s also very location specific. Here in Oregon it’s usually wet, although it’s been fairly dry this year. In wet conditions you can get away with lower psi, speeds are typically much slower and your tires slide rather than stick and fold. I’d say 3-5 psi lower, easy for you at that pressure.
Also, trouble with pre-riding is I usually only get to the track in time for one lap between races and then I'm racing (sleeping in owns me).
11-08-17, 10:19 AM
#43
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Thanks Nick Great write up.
Carcosa - one thing I did at the last race is post ride the trail after the racing was done (keep an eye out for cleanup crews). Its an option for practicing technique. That and just riding on mountain biking trails - although I need a lot more air for those as they are typically more rugged)
Carcosa - one thing I did at the last race is post ride the trail after the racing was done (keep an eye out for cleanup crews). Its an option for practicing technique. That and just riding on mountain biking trails - although I need a lot more air for those as they are typically more rugged)
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