Wonder if EbikeHawaii could give us any further R & D and the motor's photos.

I could but I am not wasting any more time on showing movies and pictures of things that I have accomplished.It is obviously not appreciated.Many people on these forums like to mix up the facts I contribute by there own FALSE interpetations. Let them tell you there facts that they think they know so well.

This looks like one of Hawaii boy's favorite turning points. When he starts talking like this, it isn't long before he starts becoming belligerent and then ultimately gets banned.

Caaattttccccchhhhh the waaaaavvvvvveeeeeee.

That's all Maui needs is an even bigger source of hot air than Hawaii boy.

Stay safe Randy you nut!!!!

This forum becomes more and more entertaining.

Put up a wind generator and you can charge your batteries.

Does this mean we won't hear anymore of your garbage?

You may have a superior bike, but you people skills suck so much nobody in their right mind would even bother with you.

I hope you come to realize this because your bike might well become the next Betamax if you keep treating people the way you're doing now.

We just got the kit in. Here's the hubmotor and wheel.
The hubmotor and wheel weigh just under 17 lbs.
The 4 SLA batteries weigh 29 lbs.
The other components together weigh 3 lbs.
So it will add a total of 49 lbs to the bike.

In order to get to your dream machine, not only do you have to define what you can get in reality but also start from the ground up. I'd suggest to get what you buy what is right for you as of today and find ways to improve. This is what human race is all about.

The only thing that needs improving in the ebike market is slecting stronger and lighter motors and batteries that ARE NOW used in other industries. My main question to peolpe here is: why hasn't any ebike mauufacture come up to the plate ? with anything ouher than JUNK! low tech throw away motots ect.
The rotor is made from precision machined steel bar and has twelve high-temperature (180°C) neodymium-iron-boron (NdFeB) magnets mounted on its circumference. The magnets are retained with stainless steel bands and the rotor is balanced prior to assembly.
Following our commitment to high quality, high performance materials and components, Nachi bearings are used throughout our product line. 30mm double-row angular contact bearings are standard.
The rear cover is comprised of glass-filled, high temperature thermoplastic, which is precision machined. A magnetically coupled coolant pump may be added, when necessary.
https://www.ecycle.com/

How much did your original wheel/rim weigh? 5lbs.?

The hub motor replaces a hub that weighs less than 1 pound.

[quote=Garandman;5047546]We looked into the available options for most of the last year. I signed on for the Yahoo newsgroup power-assist, found the forums at Endless-Sphere

As we looked into it, there are all kinds of good motors available and a number of ways to hook them up, from front and rear hub (brushed and brushless, geared and direct drive) motors to the Stoke Monkey to a number of other unique approaches. They all work well for particular uses. Industry use of electic motors is immense and that technology is highly developed.

So choice of motor or drive system is not the rub. The rub is batteries.

[quote] So WHO in the ebike industry uses available, EFFICIENT, SMALL, LIGHTWEIGHT 1000 watt motors that will do best with available Kokam lithium polymer batteries that are both used NOW in many industries ? If the rub was lightweight powerful batteries then where are the most efficient motors on Ebikes to save on battery costs with ANY batteries? Could it be that the existing ebike market has over priced it's heavy unefficient JUNK that would also be a waste of power from expensive batteries? Going back to the topic of this thread: Why is Ebike Technology Years Behinnd ? You may ask why Chineese Hub motor Controller technology is so far behind and why there $20. controllers cost over $200. these days and still heat up wasting valuable watts.
A american made 3"x3" 1000 watt box with all mil spec parts can be made for $50. each. Again! there is NOT a steady VOLUME!
https://www.lynxmotiontechnology.com/introtosema1.htm
https://kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf

EbikeHawaii, I totally agreed with you on why the industries do not utilize the new technology. However, it is understandable that no one could afford spending millions on electric bike and there is no research data showing a profitable investment on it due to multiple states laws + registration & insurance issues. Also, it is freezing cold to drive in an ebike at above 20MPH in the morning and at night in San Francisco. My thermometer was showing 4 degree in Celsius. Therefore, we have to live with what Chinese manufacturers could produce and improve from there.

yes you can have many choices all that gives ebikes little future compared to electric cars.Mabe a forum topic of: How to improve the efficiency ,WEIGHT and quality of a Chineese hub motor would best apply if you think improvment can be done on existing products.I take it that not to many people care about future designs that are possiable for a cheaper price if there was a market for LIGHTER WEIGHT 1 to 2 hp electric bikes that the power and speed could be eaisily be programed into the controller for any legal limits with much better efficiencys and range..
If I was a Chineese Hub motor manufacture or dealer each making over $100 a pop I would not change either.And what makes any hub motors Legal in all places ?

After over 15 years of making these motors someone finaly wrote a book. LOL
https://www.alternatorconversions.com/

So, I herd U liek Mudkips!!!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=MKzqP4-0Z6M

Have you ever heard of better performance ?

A Car Alternator Can Be Made Into A Powerful Hybrid Brushless Motor In A Couple Hours With Common Tools.
Use for electric vehicles, robotics, industrial, alternative energy, experimental electric aircraft, and automotive applications.
https://www.alternatorconversions.com/

The fact is, the technology is out there, but there seems to be an inconsistency in product levels. One such innovation is increasing the radius of the hub motor, increasing the speed between the magnets and windings which allows for a much lighter motor. BionX kits weigh very little, if not anything more than a frame motor, once you account for the fact that instead of having to add pieces as with a frame motor, you actually negate the weight of your old wheel. Heinzmann kits are lighter than anything Crystalyte offers by quite a bit, and considerably more powerful. They're built with an extreme level of precision and quality, nothing cut rate about them.

The thing is, when you go out and buy a kit, regardless of if its frame or not, it seems that the trend is this:
1. unreliable lowest end products: you get what you paid for. paid for crap? guess what?!
2. basic workhorses. reliable but simple: Crystalyte, Cyclone, all that jazz.
3. astronomically priced connoisseurs products.

Where's the "higher end" line?
It doesn't exist from what I can tell. How about a line for frame motors with good housing, direct hubs with radial improvements, or a cheaper internally geared system?

What'd be nice is to see a Crystalyte style motor with the radial weight savings of the BionX, but keeping in line with the non-proprietary, no frills Crystalyte stance. Skip the cute little controller, the proprietary pieces and just make the one radial improvement. So far as I know, the P2 is already filling in that sort of gap on the geared motor side, its Heinzmann design without the desire to be a rolling work of art. Simple, but better.

It'd be great to see a line of frame motors with included proper protection from the elements and a design thats intended to be utterly simplistic, the worst being that you have to lubricate and clean it.

It'd also be great to see a company working on ebike accessories: Nicer throttles, universal frame mount battery cases or a tough frame bag that locks shut, holds your batteries securely, and has ports on it for the charger and wiring. This isn't stuff thats just for the rich, its just stuff thats considered useful and non-frivolous, something any e-bike user could benefit from, regardless of their drivetrain choice.

You speak of numbers like you're trying to build a cyclocross e-bike, when most people want a reliable product that'll carry them and their junk around the city. When I hear how you talk about the extra 7-8lbs from the hub system like its something only an idiot would accept, but then look at your junk bicycle frames, components, and gutted practicality, it doesn't make much sense to me. I'd take a bike with a Crystalyte and Deore/X7 level parts over a frame motor + huffy any day: that'd be a bike you could count on to ride.

As for reliability, at this point its my personal opinion that you know absolutely nothing about it, because any decent hub motor provides a very high level of reliability. You should go tell Heinzmann customers that their motors are timebombs, they'll laugh in your face.

Practical E-bikes are born with fenders and a rack, and in all practicality, a few additional pounds matters very little. Unless you're completely incapable of using a normal bicycle within normal conditions, the thought that 15lbs is a deal breaker is simply entertaining. I'll have to tell my cycling group that we can't do banff next year because the weight limit on hill climbs is apparently now just about 20lbs. Hm.. And to think we've been doing it with all those pounds of gear, all this time. What matters more to the average person is that their bike is going to roll out the door day after day, no squeaky noises, no breakdowns, no worries. You think 7lbs is going to ruin the experience? Hm, not quite like promoting a bike without pedals is.

Compared to the electric auto industry ebike motors and electronic drives are still many YEARS BEHIND!

Considering the amount of practical, current world improvement that the e-bike has made in the last 20 years, its done alright. Mind you, the biggest sole improvement is undoubtedly simply the access to better battery chemistries, which isn't an improvement on the EV itself, rather a related technological field.

I'm wondering what you're hoping to see? What kind of technological advance can you think of for these products? Many advances have already been made, but simply aren't trickling down to the other plateau's.

A great deal of improvement is a result of competition. Something of which there isn't seemingly much of in the e-bike world. Shimano and SRAM for example are always trying to outdo each other, make their product lighter, stronger, more reliable.

Not many of these e-bike developers have rival products, most of them simply occupy a particular niche and take that market. Without a *need* to innovate, the only reason to do so from a market perspective is to refresh the product line for your previous clients.

I'm with u guys on this one, what the ebike industry needs is
a) some standardisation, with charts, data and information released as soon as the product is.
b) have properly designed products
c) start focusing on quality products designed for bikes of a specific nature or sizes of bikes.

with regards to b and c - that is where the biggest issue is in my opinion. There is too many non standard parts - and by that i mean parts not designed to fit correctly into a bike with 135mm dropouts. I would also like to see a "downhill" version of hte x5 designed to fit into downhill bike dropouts - which are different, one side is screwed in the other is clamped in. this and the addition of motors to fit would greatly help the adoption of the ebike DIY market. Also using latest common components (ie a shimano 8 speed or 9 speed hub (i konw itst a tight fit) on the motor, and making the motor narrower but larger in diameter would help too.

I hate to say it but i think we might need to get some other countries designing the motors and stuff, but having the existing manufacturers making them - to bring the benefit of correct design and low cost.

I have to say i'm impressed with crystalite's LATEST controllers (especially the ones Justin had them make with 4110 fets), their 35a controllers come with 3140 fets which are also very good (i'm running one of these) the motors still have a ways to go, but the developments of the puma based motors is going along at a nice rate, esp with the latest styles that their doing - with metal internal gears (its a hub motor)

The only thing that needs to be done is to make high efficient motors with adjustable TORQUE with programable controllers that only need to weigh 5 lbs with the efficiency range to be within 100 watts to 1500 watts for ANY Ebike use without requiring ANY gearing..The examples I have made do achive this.For Fuel cells or any kind of battery power EFFICIENCY with TORQUE at any speed nothing would be better for ANY application under electric bikes.Mounting on ebikes made for the application needs frames that are made to fit the motors and batteries or fuel cells is all.Remember that for every % of added overall motor / drive train efficency your battery costs will come down. Yes hub motors are easier to install on most bikes but where is the overall efficiency and light weight ?

Yes.

Empirical tests have demonstrated beyond any doubt that store bought kits do a better job more efficiently then the system you have devised, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You have also challenged anyone to beat you up your mountain claiming your system was the best, yet when Lowell took up your challenge you bravely chickened out.

It is irrational for a person in your position to be asking this question.

You intentionaly ignore reality.

Your perception of Ebike technology is years behind.

But it is YOU and Lo Well who ignore The Reality of sometiing that works much more efficiently and fail to beat any records or standards that I have set many years ago. If Lo Well can't achieve climbing a mountain on his own don't call me the chicken.I already set the electric vehicle worlds record elevation climb that hasn't been beaten by anyone in 4 years. Lo Well has chickened out on his own, The challange will always be open to anyone who can beat the existing hill climbing record up to 10,005 feet in elevation on one set of batteries charged once for the trip..Your so called Empirical tests have demonstrated NOTHING in real life.Your dreaming hard does not make your pointed out tests a real fact.