I appreciate and respect the group's feelings about the discussion of g@s0lin< engines so my question is focused on electric bikes. I plan to buy an assist package and am investigating all possibilities.

My question is - what do you see to be the advantages of an electric system?

I know the obvious significant advantage - near silence.

Arguably, the construction, charging, and disposal of batteries is less polluting than tailpipe exhaust.

Are there other advantages?

Thanks in advance.
David

Well, you've covered the noise and pollution issues so I guess the only thing left is the cool factor and the people you go by won't hate you and in fact, will be very interested in your electric bike.

Also, if you are going to go gasoline, then why not stay legal? You could buy a used motorcycle, and frankly is would be safer. if you drive it defensively.

A two stroke engine on a bicycle is way more polluting than a four stroke on a motorcycle. People will hate the stink and noise generated by these things. Go with electric.

Would you feel the same way about a 4-stroke Robin/Subaru?

The reason I wouldn't go with a motorcycle is that I want to provide half the power through pedaling.

I like the Subaru motor, some reviews rank it better than a honda motor, so I'm sure its reasonably quiet. The mitsubishi is pretty good too. https://www.bikemotor.com/

but I'm concerned that you may buy a gasoline motor, and then realize that many places don't allow them. If you are planning on using on city streets or in a park, you are almost certainly going to be breaking the law.

However, if your favorite bike riding is going to be on a gravel road or trail out in the middle of nowhere. then personally, I think you will really love the gasoline engine. It'll provide you with better hill climbing capabilities, and you are only a refill away from going back out onto the trail.

My best advice: in town: go electric. if out of town: go motorized.

I take that back then, although automotive exhaust is still cleaner than a motorcycle's. I actually got rid of my motorcycle in favor of my xtracycle to be electrified. The ebike is permitted in the bike cage at work and other bicycle-only places.

I have a long wheel base recumbant with a Robin Subaru 1.6 hp engine. If you need to cover a longer distance it can't be beat. It will surely put miles behind you much faster than a electric. The range is much longer also. I don't get a very relazing ride with it. The vibration and noise deminish the enjoyment signaficantly. This coming spring I am going to build a Rans Stratus with electric. I believe for shorter rides the electric will fix the rattled effect I get from the gas engine.

I have both a bicycle with a 4 stroke engine and bicycles with electric motors. I prefer the electric bikes. Quiet.

'Vibration' adds a new factor to the equation. If you open the windows in a car while driving on the interstate, it's not only the noise that makes the trip long, it's also the constant pounding of the wind. Vibration would probably be very similar.

Interesting to read that you are going to put electric on a Stratus - great ride. I ride a Stratus and a V-Rex but I was going to put it on the V-Rex because it fits in the elevator at work. Did you have a tendency to break spokes with the spoke drive or did they hold up on the stock wheel?

Do you think the vibration would eventually cause frame problems or was it not that significant?

First you need to find out what's legal where you are. The decision may already be made for you. Do not assume that "motorized bike laws are pretty much the same everywhere", because they aren't. Some places are everything-goes, others are everything-prohibited, and other places are somewhere along the middle. You need to know the local laws before you start spending money.

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Beyond that: I have a gas-engined bike, and have test-rode a couple electrics owned by other people.

Electrics are better for shorter ranges, for hills, and for stop-and-go traffic. They make a lot of torque even at zero MPH, so they pull away from a start very well. If you go with the front-hub motors, they are also very easy to fit on most bikes.

Batteries can and do suffer meltdowns, and very often they happen during recharging. If you are wise, you will obtain a big shallow tray and always make sure the batteries are placed over that (either directly in the tray, or under the bike) when you are recharging them.

Gas engines are better for longer-distance riding over flat terrain. Most need to get going at least 10-15 mph before the engine really makes its torque, so starting up even a slight hill can be difficult. The noise may be not so bad really, depending on the engine. When I'm in the country, I can hear birds and crickets while I'm riding along with the engine at full-throttle.

Some people have noted that you can't store gas-engine bikes inside the house but so far I have not found that to be the case--but then, I have a 4-stroke engine that is still rather new, and eventually the storage arrangements may need to change. Two-stroke engines do tend to smell like fuel, but people who like the 2-strokes think the 4-strokes are underpowered.

The gas can I carry on the bike does need to be stored outside--the only two brands of gas cans I could find that were a suitable shape were both made of blow-molded plastic, and neither of them has a spout cap that seals very well.

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I started out wanting to build something for short-range high-MPG transportation, and ended up somewhere else entirely. An e-bike would have been better for what I originally planned, but then again, I didn't end up using the motorized bike for what I originally planned anyway.

As it is now, I occasionally use mine around town but mostly for rural fun-riding: 3-4+ hours covering 50-75 miles is not unusual. No electric I could have built for the same price could do that.
~

Electric is more energy efficient, but Gas gives more even heat. That's why pro chefs use it.

Nobodies mentioned gas mileage cost.

If you are going to use your bike to commute, and plug in at your destination, your gas mileage will jump to infinite mpg.

infinite mpg with electric versus 150ish mpg with gas, and ebikes have a huge advantage, provided you keep your trips shorter.

From what I've learned so far, the cost of charging a battery is pretty small and I really like the idea of doing half my charges at work.

Amazingly, even at 100 - 120 mpg, the cost of gasoline is still about 3-4 cents per mile. So I agree that the cost of charging is better than the cost of gas.

The real operating expense of an electric bike though, is replacing the battery when it no longer cycles - correct me if I'm wrong. If a charge cycle gets 20 miles, the cost of that battery is $500, and it gets 1000 cycles, the cost of the battery is $500/(20x1000) = 2.5 cents per mile.

More cycles, cheaper battery, or more miles per charge would reduce that number but I still think that total operating costs will be similar.

Please feel free to argue against that. I'm more interested in getting the correct answer than I am in defending what I wrote.

but what is the fine for driving a unlicensed motor vehicle on public roads? Don't always assume that the police officer will be nice to you.

Doug's advice about needing to know the local laws is a good one.

1) You can take the electric more places. I'm not hassled on sidewalks, canals or the MUP, as long as I'm considerate and going at a reasonable speed for those scenarios.
2) You won't stink like lawnmower fumes when you get to your destination.
3) You won't gag out people like me, who have to hear the noise and smell your fumes in the bike lane. There is a guy around here who rides one of those. While I'm curious, I'm also kind of grossed out.
4) You won't have to make an extra stop at the gas station.

...However, I am in agreement with an earlier poster who notes that long distances may require gas. Distance is the main limitation in electric technology right now. Otherwise, I'd be buying an electric car also.

You're right, for sure. Battery replacement will cost you about as much as gas, even though the electricity for an e-bike hardly costs anything.

I don't think a cost comparison between a gas bike and an electric bike is always going to be the only comparison made.

If I take my truck to work, it'll cost me $100 per week. If I take my power assisted bike to work it'll cost me about $2 per week.

Well this is my point.
A lot of people seem to like to assume that an electric-motored bicycle will usually be legal, when a gas-engined one is not--and that's making one of those "assumptions" I warned about.
In the US at least, it's simply not true.
Some US states allow both, while some prohibit both. A couple allow e-bikes but not gas engines, and some have different requirements to meet for one vs. the other.

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The main justification for prohibition of motorized bicycles is usually that there's no formal licensing involved, and as a result of that, towns have no legal way to keep small kids from riding them wild in the street.

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Another arguable reason could be to reduce 2-stroke pollution, but then again, (in the USA, like many other countries) small 2-stroke engines are already slowly effectively being legislated out of existence. A lot of the Chinese bicycle engine kits that have come in to the US are two-strokes, but the Chinese manufacturers are already shifting into 4-stroke engines due to US import restrictions on two-strokes that began in 2006. The USA (like most of Europe I understand) doesn't allow new street-legal two-stroke motorcycles or scooters anymore (the US hasn't allowed new roadworthy 2-stroke motorcycles since 1986) and the two-stroke bicycle engines aren't even legal to ride in China cities anymore.

If you end up riding behind one of these two-stroke bikes you might think it's pretty awful (and I don't know that I'd argue the issue much) but keep in mind that their days are already numbered.
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I am using Aerospoke mag wheels. I use them just so I don't have any spoke problems with the heavy bike. The bike is a Lightfoot Ranger. I would recommend you take a look at their web site. Great product. the Ranger is built to carry 350 lbs. I don't think the viberation will cause any problems with the frame.

You don't need to buy a composite wheel for reliability. Traditional spoked wheels should remain true for years of hard use without any spoke breakage. The problem is with poorly built wheels that put spokes at risk by allowing them to flex repeatedly (at the elbow where they go through the hub flange). Set them properly (wheel builders call this "stress relieving") and tension the wheel and the spokes will last a long, long time.

For what its worth, the maker of my (very high end) electric assist bike told me they are dropping the TAG composite wheels. I don't know what problems they were having.

I very much agree with this: bike wheels that are machine-trued tend to have problems with uneven tension, and on most sub-$500 bikes (and even some that cost a lot more) the wheels are machine-trued. The wheels will SPIN true, they will look perfectly fine--but that doesn't mean the spoke tension is even. Some spokes are way too loose and others are way too tight, and the over-tight ones are carrying too much of the stress and are the ones likely to break.

The easiest way to make sure a wheel is built properly is to pay your LBS to do it. You can re-use the hub often but usually the spokes and rims on cheaper wheels are truly junk--and better ones don't cost much more than junky ones. The rims on a lot of lower-end bikes are "OEM-level" parts that are so cheap that your LBS can't even order equivalents.

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Another thing I advise with ANY new bicycle or wheel is you pull off the tire/tube/rim strip, and inspect all the nipple butts to make sure none of them are chewed up. If any are, it is a very good bet that the wheel build is cr4p and should be re-done.

It may have not been problems with the composites so much as the fact that properly-built wire-spoke wheels cost less and had few problems too.
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Hey all,
I'm in the "just curious" point in my research and at the point of gas or electric.
So it appears that cost is very similar and very much so cheaper than car vs moped vs any assist bike.
Distance favors gas, but gas is anti-bicycle in concept.
Doug pointed out his gas tank needs to be stored outside... As a complete newbe, please explain this. Is it the gas can attached to the motor or an extra gas can. Camping fuel containers would seem to be an excelent extra gas can.
Could gas be attached to a drop bar bike?
Scott

The setup I have has a little 24-oz tank built onto the engine, and I have a bracket on the bike for carrying another 2-gallon gas can. It's the 2-gallon gas can that has to be kept outside.

Some people use the MSR camp fuel bottles; there's one size that fits almost perfect into a normal water bottle cage. I have one but gave up using it because it's not enough to avoid having to stop and refuel at gas stations. I tend to wander rural roads avoiding towns, due to the car traffic. With two gallons carried along, I can wander all afternoon--literally hours--without worrying about running out of gas.
Most can.
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"Some people use the MSR camp fuel bottles; there's one size that fits almost perfect into a normal water bottle cage. I have one but gave up using it because it's not enough to avoid having to stop and refuel at gas stations. I tend to wander rural roads avoiding towns, due to the car traffic. With two gallons carried along, I can wander all afternoon--literally hours--without worrying about running out of gas."
Wait... At 150ish mpg, how many miles are you riding. I was under the impression that they got more distance than that.
Scott