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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

Old 07-21-21, 05:29 PM
  #101  
Pop N Wood
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I ride much like fooferdoggie, put in the pedal effort I want then add electric boost to either up the speed or help me accelerate in a hurry. Throttles are great for accelerating across a street or into traffic.

To me the only real difference between a torque sensing unit and a cadence one is the torque sensor keeps you from having to constantly adjust the assist level. It takes a power to make a bike cruise at a faster speed. If the motor isn't providing the power then the legs need to or else the bike slows down. Turn the assist down low, or even off, and pedal at a comfortable speed. Come up to hill, busy street, or just decide you want to get somewhere in a hurry, step up the assist, pedal just as hard, but now go faster. If the bike is moving with you barely spinning the pedals, step down the assist level, it will stop doing that.

I'm not sure what is so magical about 250 watts. You wouldn't buy a blender with that little power, why do you think it is all that is needed for a bicycle? Just because the EU settled on that number? Better to have the power and not use it. it isn't like a muscle car where efficiency drops from having a big ass cam. Plus bigger motor usually means it isn't working as hard and should live longer.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:00 PM
  #102  
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A motor is a motor, the existence of which obviously separates motorized vehicles from human powered ones. "Pedal assist" or throttle, 250W or 750W, 20mph or 30mph, all that is just a matter of degree. It's silly to say one type is more legit than another, all have crossed the divide. FWIW, there are now three ebikers in our riding group. The first one to go ebike has a heart problem and his meds prevented him from climbing hills. The other two got ebikes because they were "tired of being tired after a ride." We are happy they are able to continue to ride with us and are plotting ways to have them carry extra supplies for the group. Maybe pull a trailer with a keg!
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Old 07-21-21, 06:07 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
I ride much like fooferdoggie, put in the pedal effort I want then add electric boost to either up the speed or help me accelerate in a hurry. Throttles are great for accelerating across a street or into traffic.

To me the only real difference between a torque sensing unit and a cadence one is the torque sensor keeps you from having to constantly adjust the assist level. It takes a power to make a bike cruise at a faster speed. If the motor isn't providing the power then the legs need to or else the bike slows down. Turn the assist down low, or even off, and pedal at a comfortable speed. Come up to hill, busy street, or just decide you want to get somewhere in a hurry, step up the assist, pedal just as hard, but now go faster. If the bike is moving with you barely spinning the pedals, step down the assist level, it will stop doing that.
I agree that it doesn't make any difference if an e-bike has a throttle, torque or cadence sensing. They are just different ways of controlling the power output, and they aren't all that different. You can still modulate the combination of human and electric motor power input any way you want through the different interfaces and control mechanisms. So according to me, a bike with a throttle and a small motor is still an e-bike because it operates a lot like a regular human powered bike. A bike with a torque sensor and a 15kw motor is a motorcycle because, wait... I'm not really even sure how that would work.


Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
I'm not sure what is so magical about 250 watts. You wouldn't buy a blender with that little power, why do you think it is all that is needed for a bicycle? Just because the EU settled on that number? Better to have the power and not use it. it isn't like a muscle car where efficiency drops from having a big ass cam. Plus bigger motor usually means it isn't working as hard and should live longer.
Nothing magical about 250w, and you're right I wouldn't buy a blender or an e-bike with only 250w. I ride bikes with gas motors and output measured in horsepower. I also don't pretend they're the same thing as a bicycle or try to ride them on bike paths. I assume everyone agrees that there is some arbitrary amount of power when an e-bike isn't really a bike anymore, it's an electric motorcycle with pedals. I think 250w is a reasonable cutoff because most untrained cyclists can't put out that much power for more than a few minutes, so with 250w of assist, the e-bike still operates like a normal human-powered bicycle. I can see arguments for 500w, 750w seems like a real stretch and over 1000w is definitely into motorcycle territory. Most untrained riders can't put out that much power for even a second. All that said, I still don't care what people ride as long as they're not jerks about it.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:23 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
None of those things are true in the US. We may have laws but nobody knows what they are so people ride pretty much whatever they want and call it an e-bike. The 15kw Swind EB-01 is made in the UK, so there are high-powered e-bikes in your country too.


I'm not sure why you keep repeating that I don't understand simple concepts that I clearly understand. I just don't agree with you that the power control matters for calling something an e-bike or not when we are comparing 250w vs. 15kw motors.
Some people who "actually" ride E-bikes with pressure sensors compared to throttles, compared to rotation/cadence sensors, seem to "understand the "difference"... and... people like you do NOT... JMO...

As for the power available, with pressure sensors you only get a %, NOT the whole amount, at the lower levels... and, 250 to 350 watts max motor assist allows you to ... what... ride comfortably, with such a small motor you would not even go up a 6% hill without putting in the max you can pedal (average person) to make it up the hill. IMO as for the USA Laws on E-bikes they are indeed allowing mopeds to be "called" E-Bikes... again JMO...

Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
I ride much like fooferdoggie, put in the pedal effort I want then add electric boost to either up the speed or help me accelerate in a hurry. Throttles are great for accelerating across a street or into traffic.

To me the only real difference between a torque sensing unit and a cadence one is the torque sensor keeps you from having to constantly adjust the assist level. It takes a power to make a bike cruise at a faster speed. If the motor isn't providing the power then the legs need to or else the bike slows down. Turn the assist down low, or even off, and pedal at a comfortable speed. Come up to hill, busy street, or just decide you want to get somewhere in a hurry, step up the assist, pedal just as hard, but now go faster. If the bike is moving with you barely spinning the pedals, step down the assist level, it will stop doing that.

I'm not sure what is so magical about 250 watts. You wouldn't buy a blender with that little power, why do you think it is all that is needed for a bicycle? Just because the EU settled on that number? Better to have the power and not use it. it isn't like a muscle car where efficiency drops from having a big ass cam. Plus bigger motor usually means it isn't working as hard and should live longer.
Better to have the power and not use it is the fail in the USA Laws .. guess what, most people WILL use it and thus are riding a MOPED... IMO,
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Old 07-21-21, 06:35 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Some people who "actually" ride E-bikes with pressure sensors compared to throttles, compared to rotation/cadence sensors, seem to "understand the "difference"... and... people like you do NOT... JMO...
Not caring and not understanding are not the same thing.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:35 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
I ride much like fooferdoggie, put in the pedal effort I want then add electric boost to either up the speed or help me accelerate in a hurry. Throttles are great for accelerating across a street or into traffic.

.
I can outdo a throttle Now I often when feeling good and only in the tour on my bosch I can pop a wheelie whenI start out I put out 400 to 600 watts starting out it feels great.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:58 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Not caring and not understanding are not the same thing.
That IS true, Unfortunately, it ends up being the same thing, your USA laws for E-bikes prove it,... The EU laws are sensible, they "allow" a little assistance, and no throttle, and a pedal pressure sensor to "make sure" that the person riding the bike actually must pedal, and put most of the "effort into making the bicycle move" Yea.... THAT IS, an E-Assist bicycle. IMO ALL others are mopeds. IMO

EDIT; I would even say a 500+/750 watt E-Bike with or without a throttle or even with a pedal pressure sensor, is a motorbike/moped... It is as simple as that... Anyone who says it is not, is a moron, IMO...

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Old 07-21-21, 07:50 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
I can outdo a throttle Now I often when feeling good and only in the tour on my bosch I can pop a wheelie whenI start out I put out 400 to 600 watts starting out it feels great.
Yes, it does/would feel great, I am sure... But you are not riding a bicycle anymore. IMO.
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Old 07-21-21, 07:51 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Yes, it does/would feel great, I am sure... But you are not riding a bicycle anymore. IMO.
thats 400 to 600 watts of my own power. m bike only has a 250 watt motor.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:03 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
i would even say a 500+/750 watt e-bike with or without a throttle or even with a pedal pressure sensor, is a motorbike/moped... it is as simple as that... Anyone who says it is not, is a moron, imo...
fify
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Old 07-21-21, 08:03 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
thats 400 to 600 watts of my own power. m bike only has a 250 watt motor.
In your dreams....
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Old 07-21-21, 08:05 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
In your dreams....
I my dreams what? my bike has a built in watt meter.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:11 PM
  #113  
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BS. You aren't putting out 400 watts. Go borrow a real bike with a power meter, put it on Strava and I'll send you $40 bucks if you can put out 400 watts over 1/4 mile. That enough fours?
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Old 07-21-21, 08:18 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
BS. You aren't putting out 400 watts. Go borrow a real bike with a power meter, put it on Strava and I'll send you $40 bucks if you can put out 400 watts over 1/4 mile. That enough fours?
I did not say I kept putting out 400 watts. I said that I started the bike out and was able to accelerate with that much power. I have averaged 200 watts for 15 miles or so. of course its not dead on but its close enough. it doesn't to need to be 100% accurate It shows me how well I am doing and how much I have improved. ya cause my bike is not a real bike. I ride 200 to 250 miles a week and got 15,000 miles in a year and a half. 400 watts is not that much racers can do 1200 watts. I have climbed short block long hills doing 400 watts I push as hard as I can on the lowest level of assist jsut enough to keep my speed up. bought this bike November 2019





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Old 07-21-21, 08:19 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I'm not sure why you keep repeating that I don't understand simple concepts that I clearly understand. I just don't agree with you that the power control matters for calling something an e-bike or not when we are comparing 250w vs. 15kw motors.
Well I tried my best, but I can see that you still consider all types of e-bikes to be the same thing and only their maximum power output has any relevance. If you ever get to ride a decent e-bike instead of the electric mopeds you rented then you might just change your view. But if you donít care, why even respond to a thread about e-bikes anyway?
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Old 07-21-21, 08:27 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
I did not say I kept putting out 400 watts. I said that I started the bike out and was able to accelerate with that much power. I have averaged 200 watts for 15 miles or so. of course its not dead on but its close enough. it doesn't to need to be 100% accurate It shows me how well I am doing and how much I have improved. ya cause my bike is not a real bike. I ride 200 to 250 miles a week and got 15,000 miles in a year and a half. 400 watts is not that much racers can do 1200 watts. I have climbed short block long hills doing 400 watts I pi=ush as hard as I can on the lowest level of assist jsut enough to keep my speed up.
Yep sounds fair enough. Iím a fairly average fit rider and can put out 500W for about a minute and 400W for about 3 minutes. FTP (1 hour) just under 300W.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:28 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
I did not say I kept putting out 400 watts. I said that I started the bike out and was able to accelerate with that much power. I have averaged 200 watts for 15 miles or so. of course its not dead on but its close enough. it doesn't to need to be 100% accurate It shows me how well I am doing and how much I have improved. ya cause my bike is not a real bike. I ride 200 to 250 miles a week and got 15,000 miles in a year and a half. 400 watts is not that much racers can do 1200 watts. I have climbed short block long hills doing 400 watts I pi=ush as hard as I can on the lowest level of assist jsut enough to keep my speed up.
You are being deluded by your "watt meter." Again, get on a bike with a power meter and see if you can average even 200 watts for any distance. If you could, you wouldn't need an ebike. Also, I assure you nobody is impressed by ebike miles per year any more than your automobile miles per year.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:39 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
You are being deluded by your "watt meter." Again, get on a bike with a power meter and see if you can average even 200 watts for any distance. If you could, you wouldn't need an ebike. Also, I assure you nobody is impressed by ebike miles per year any more than your automobile miles per year.
I have a ebike to go faster and father. I started off so sick I could hardly peddle. I love the acceleration of the e bike and on days I feel crappy I can keep my speed. And to the it does not matter how far I ride bullcrap. I have a raised heart rate and I am working it does not matter if it is on a e bike. Saturday I rode 65 miles burned about 1600 calories. according to my garmin and my e bike computer. both pretty much match since they both have my heart rate. if your getting your hear rate up and spinning your exercising. I wrote regular bikes 15,000 miles and I never worked as hard as I do on my e bike it wasn't to as much fun. I went fro getting 20 miles on a charge to over 40 miles going faster. that whole thing that e bikes don't take any effort is really silly and shows a lack of knowledge. your heart rate is a very good indication of how hard you working.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:45 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
I have a ebike to go faster and father. I started off so sick I could hardly peddle. I love the acceleration of the e bike and on days I feel crappy I can keep my speed. And to the it does not matter how far I ride bullcrap. I have a raised heart rate and I am working it does not matter if it is on a e bike. Saturday I rode 65 miles burned about 1600 calories. according to my garmin and my e bike computer. both pretty much match since they both have my heart rate. if your getting your hear rate up and spinning your exercising. I wrote regular bikes 15,000 miles and I never worked as hard as I do on my e bike it wasn't to as much fun. I went fro getting 20 miles on a charge to over 40 miles going faster. that whole thing that e bikes don't take any effort is really silly and shows a lack of knowledge. your heart rate is a very good indication of how hard you working.
You seem to be getting a little agitated so let's leave this. You do what suits you.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:45 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Yep sounds fair enough. Iím a fairly average fit rider and can put out 500W for about a minute and 400W for about 3 minutes. FTP (1 hour) just under 300W.
Ya I can only do it for a short time. But my body is wacky and I have to live off of protein only with veggies three times a week. so all my energy is from that I don't get to run off carbs. I get more miles on our e tandem and its hard to get my watts and heart rate up on it. we cruise at about 19 mph where the motor is almost cut off we only use 3 watts per mile from the motor so I am only doing at most 100 watts so I cant get my heart rate very high. I want to buy a watt meter for my wife so we can see how well she does. when I get 230 or more miles a week it really wears me out. last week we got 237 then took the bus to the beack=h and walked another 10 miles. rode a cheap tandem rental 3 miles. It would not even shift
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Old 07-21-21, 08:46 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I agree that it doesn't make any difference if an e-bike has a throttle, torque or cadence sensing. They are just different ways of controlling the power output, and they aren't all that different. You can still modulate the combination of human and electric motor power input any way you want through the different interfaces and control mechanisms. So according to me, a bike with a throttle and a small motor is still an e-bike because it operates a lot like a regular human powered bike. A bike with a torque sensor and a 15kw motor is a motorcycle because, wait... I'm not really even sure how that would work.
I thought you said that you clearly understood the difference. Well from this response you clearly donít!

There is a whole world of difference between controlling power with a throttle or random cadence vs having to pedal with human power to get a proportional level of power assistance. Of course if you make the level of assistance ridiculously high then it becomes a mute point, but reputable e-bikes designed for sport donít actually do that. They are programmable and usually have a maximum assist of 250W by regulation. They are quite subtle in operation, especially on their lower settings.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:46 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
You seem to be getting a little agitated so let's leave this. You do what suits you.
or your jsut being silly who knows? go ride a good mid drive e bike and see what its about. it may surprise you.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:49 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I thought you said that you clearly understood the difference. Well from this response you clearly donít!.
I assure you I know how a torque sensor and an electric motor work. It's not magic.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:52 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I thought you said that you clearly understood the difference. Well from this response you clearly donít!

There is a whole world of difference between controlling power with a throttle or random cadence vs having to pedal with human power to get a proportional level of power assistance. Of course if you make the level of assistance ridiculously high then it becomes a mute point, but reputable e-bikes designed for sport donít actually do that. They are programmable and usually have a maximum assist of 250W by regulation. They are quite subtle in operation, especially on their lower settings.
right. on my bosch I can get the same workout with no assist or any of the 4 levels I just go faster doing it. like I like to go around 22mph I cant always maintain that on the lowest level of assist so I just to the next. I upgraded the computer so I could turn down the tour assist level and crank up the eco a bit so I can get my speed up with less assist. I use the ebike so I can go faster I commute 20 miles a day going faster saves me 20 or more minutes a day makes it faster then public transportation.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:52 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
You are being deluded by your "watt meter." Again, get on a bike with a power meter and see if you can average even 200 watts for any distance. If you could, you wouldn't need an ebike. Also, I assure you nobody is impressed by ebike miles per year any more than your automobile miles per year.
I think he said he could average 200W over 15 miles. Thatís not unrealistic for a keen cyclist. Neither is 400W for a short sprint.
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